Fire Emblem Genesis

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Team composition

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1 Team composition on Wed Dec 02, 2009 6:45 pm

A character comparison consists of Unit A + team vs Unit B + team. In some cases, the question of exactly what other units are on the team is relevant. For example in FE11, in a team composed solely of High and Upper Mid units, Ogma has a monopoly or near-monopoly on the two early Killing Edges, the early Silver Silver Sword, and Mercurius. However, if there's a significant chance for Mid Tier units like Navarre or Athena to be on the team, his claim to those weapons is reduced.

The tier list's assumption of efficient play leads to the logical conclusion that your team will consist of top and high tiers, with possibly one or two upper mid units. A player going for efficiency obviously will use the best units available.

However, I've heard people at various points argue that "you can't ignore this unit's existence just because they're lower mid!" and such. I recall someone stating that top/high tiers are only "more likely" to be used, indicating that every unit has some chance to be used, and that chance simply increases the better that a unit is. I have no idea how you would actually apply this concept in tier discussions; would top tiers have a 90% chance to be played, then high tiers have 75%, and etc, down to bottom tiers with a 5% chance to be played, or something like that, or what?

Thoughts on the issue, so that in the future we don't have to squabble over whether or not this random mid or lower mid unit will be around to claim a resource otherwise exclusive to a high/top tier?

The first option, i.e. that the team is generally top/high tier with possibly 1-2 upper mids, is the more logical conclusion going by the tier list's assumption of efficient play. I don't see any logical arguments to support the use of the second option, where all units have some significant chance to be used.

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2 Re: Team composition on Wed Dec 02, 2009 6:57 pm

On the H5 tier list...

Availability is a major factor concerning a character's use of powerful weapons and stat boosters.

This pretty much explains the Oguma situation. His availability on Silver and Killer Swords is simply better.

And.

The 'rest of the team' is assumed to have ideal traits a unit should have, and not comprised of multiple weak units

If we're assuming we're using a non-top/high tier character, then the rest of the team can't suck. If we're assuming we're using a top/high tier character, then the rest of the team can't suck.

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3 Re: Team composition on Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:38 pm

The 'rest of the team' is assumed to have ideal traits a unit should have, and not comprised of multiple weak units

So......are you saying that the team is assumed to be comprised of top/high tiers? Because obviously, those units are the greatest embodiments of the "ideal traits a unit should have."

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4 Re: Team composition on Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:38 pm

However, I've heard people at various points argue that "you can't ignore this unit's existence just because they're lower mid!"

I'm sure you're aware of the fact that this type of thing varies wildly per game. Like in FE8, the enemy strength is weak enough that training a large body of units is probably more ideal than a smaller one. This sort of applies to FE10 as well with a lot of weak units being forced in various chapters (eg/ Leo in part 1). Then tier lists don't take into account standard deviation of performances (are you good throughout the game or does your usage rapidly drop say halfway through?), and of course the RNG can modify what your high/top tier team will be as opposed to the expected average.

At any rate, I think considering lower-mids for resources and such only becomes relevant when we compare them to someone else, and thus assume they're guaranteed to be fielded. There's a distinction between the expected team structure and a partially forced team structure that has to be considered.

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5 Re: Team composition on Thu Dec 03, 2009 3:09 am

I'm sure you're aware of the fact that this type of thing varies wildly per game. Like in FE8, the enemy strength is weak enough that training a large body of units is probably more ideal than a smaller one. This sort of applies to FE10 as well with a lot of weak units being forced in various chapters (eg/ Leo in part 1).

Indeed, I tend to favor large teams myself. However, even if you use the largest reasonable team size, units below upper mid generally have negligible odds of being worthwhile options for your "main team." To use FE11 (which gives you a fairly large number of deployment slots as compared to a game like FE7) as an example, Skittles + High + Upper Mid + Marth is 17 units which are all potential "main team" material, and then you also have to include utility units applicable for many chaps (Jeigan, Wendell, Julian, etc).

Then tier lists don't take into account standard deviation of performances (are you good throughout the game or does your usage rapidly drop say halfway through?), and of course the RNG can modify what your high/top tier team will be as opposed to the expected average.

What do you mean by "standard deviation of performances?"

As for the RNG, yes, that can mess with things. However, Upper Mid and above generally always provide a surplus of units as compared to how many you can fit on your team. So if some high tier gets screwed, there's several upper mid units waiting in line to take his place. Dudes below upper mid still aren't likely to see any use just because some higher unit got screwed.

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6 Re: Team composition on Thu Dec 03, 2009 6:38 am

What do you mean by "standard deviation of performances?"

You have someone like FE9 Lethe who is top tier for the first half of her availability, but then does poorly enough the rest of the way to earn a rank in upper-mid/high (not sure where she is now). Then you have someone like FE9 Tanith who is consistently performing at high for her entire availability. Lethe's standard deviation of performance would thus be much higher.

Anyway, the point is, a "top 10" team structure is continuously changing based on the different demands of a chapter, and how a unit's performance improves, degrades or remains the same over time.

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7 Re: Team composition on Thu Dec 03, 2009 7:30 am

So......are you saying that the team is assumed to be comprised of top/high tiers? Because obviously, those units are the greatest embodiments of the "ideal traits a unit should have."
I worded it so that I don't have to exactly mean this, as there may be units not in high/top that have a couple of ideal traits that can help the player, and have a reason to be on a team (supports, for example).

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