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Jill(T) into high

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1 Jill(T) into high on Mon Nov 30, 2009 10:01 am

This is my argument from SF:

Jill (T) into high tier.

Let's compare her to Nolan when she first joins. Giving Nolan a level per chapter and 'B' Aran (Likely?) gets him these stats:

Level 14 Nolan with an iron axe forge, 'B' Aran: 32 HP, 27 Atk, 13 AS, 56 Avo, 12 Def, 6 Res
Level 14 Jill with an iron axe forge: 24 HP, 26 Atk, 17 AS, 48 Avo, 13 Def, 3 Res

Right off the bat, Jill has an offensive lead over Nolan. The latter doubles 3 enemies but only has a HKO lead on the armour (though RKO is the same). The former only fails to double 4 enemies - two of which aren't doubled even by the top tier Volug. Oh yeah, and Jill has flight + mov lead + canto over Nolan to reach enemies. The pegasus will be hard to reach for Nolan, I'm sure.

Of course, there's durability right? Yeah, Nolan has an 8 HP, 8 avo and 3 res lead against Jill's lone def, so that's a win. But there's the seraph robe you get in 1-4. With that, it's pretty close (1 HP + 8 avo + 3 res vs 1 def), and considering Jill's offensive and mobility leads, Jill(T) has teh advantage at this point i'd say.

Come endgame:

Level 18 Nolan with a steel axe forge, 'B' Zihark: 34 HP, 32 Atk, 15 AS, 72 Avo, 12 Def, 7 Res
Level 17 Jill with a steel axe forge, 'C' Volug + Robe: 32.5 HP, 30 Atk, 19 AS, 64 Avo, 15 Def, 5 Res

Durably, it's 1.5 HP + 8 avo + 2 Res vs 3 Def. Pretty close, but I'd say Jill wins it, as after a hit each, Jill's leading HP by 1.5 points, unless it's res, but mages aren't incredibly common anyway. Considering it took a robe, let's call it a tie, however. What's not a tier, though, is there offensive capabilities. Do you know how many enemies 15 AS doubles? 1. The meteor mage at the back that even base Micaiah can double. I looked through the enemy list and there's only 1 enemy Nolan has a RKO lead against - Jarod. Nolan 3RKO's, Jill 4RKO's. But noone cares anyway as we'd rather have Nailah or the BK do it in just 1 turn.

Oh, and Jill can fly up ledges without a penalty, and still has canto, so she still has superier mobility than Nolan.

Part 3 comes along swiftly...

Level 20/1 Nolan with Tarvos 'B' Zihark: 38 HP, 36 Atk, 18 AS, 80 Avo, 18 Def, 9 Res
Level 20/1 Jill with a steel axe forge, 'B' Volug + Robe: 36 HP, 34 Atk, 21 AS, 80 Avo, 18 Def, 9 Res

19x Tiger lvl 16: HP 50-52, Atk 39, AS 16, Hit 137, Avo 39, DEF 20
8x Cat lvl 15: HP 42, Atk 27, AS 20, Hit 137, Avo 47, DEF 14
7x Cat lvl 17: HP 43, Atk 31, AS 22, Hit 142, Avo 52, DEF 16

Durably, i'd say it's a tie. Nolan's HP gives him the advantage against a few enemies (such as the level 15 cats), but Jill's AS means she isn't doubled by some of the cats. As for offence, well, look at the stats yourselves, folks, Nolan 4RKO's the level 16 Tigers, Jill 2RKO's them. (Nolan 3RKO's with teh brave axe). Jill 3RKO's the level 15 cats, Nolan 2RKO's them (Both 2RKO with the barve axe). Both 3RKO the level 17 cats (both 2RKO with teh brave axe). So Jill has an advantage offensively against the most common enemy on the map. This, along with flight utility makes her the superier in this map too.

Skip along to part 4...

Level 20/12 Jill with a forged silver axe, 'A' Volug + Robe: 41.5 HP, 42 Atk, 25 AS, 104 Avo, 23 Def, 14 Res
Level 20/12 Nolan with Tarvos, 'A' Zihark: 44 HP, 41 Atk, 24 AS, 113 Avo, 22 Def, 12 Res

Say Jill went to 4-P and Nolan to 4-1. Jill doubles ~17 enemies, on average. But in 4-1, Nolan only doubles 4 enemies. You can see the difference. Even in 4-P, Nolan would only double 4 enemies, so please, nothing like "You're favouring Jill by letting her go to pally fest", especially since the desert is after 4-P, and Jill can most certainly go there as it's where she's at her best (probably). In fact, I'd say I'm favouring Nolan, as I'm giving him authority stars to help his avoid. With them, even the 4-1 crossbow user has <50% hit on him. aka, it's very good. Jill's facing 40-60% hit rates mostly, while Nolan faces 20-40%, quite a difference. So Nolan's better durably and Jill's better offensively. But Jill isn't a glass cannon (36 Atk, which is about average for 4-P, 4RKO's her), and Nolan isn't exactly weak. So overall, I'd say they tie.

Come endgame:

Level 20/20/6 Jill with a forged silver axe, 'A' Volug + Robe: 52 HP, 50 Atk, 30 AS, 136.5 Avo, 30 Def, 22 Res
Level 20/20/6 Nolan with Tarvos, 'A' Zihark: 56 HP, 49 Atk, 32 AS, 152 Avo, 28 Def, 19 Res

Nolan doubles 7 more enemies with that AS lead of his, which is pretty good. Jill's Atk, avo and HP can all be a bit higher than what's shown here with bexp, however, especially as she caps speed early in tier two. Nolan's mostly 3-5RKO'ed, whilst Jill's 4-6RKO'ed. Both are pretty untouchable, though. So yeah, Nolan finally wins.

Well, he does... until we hit dragons when they're both the same when it comes to doubling, but Jill being slightly more durable and then by the time we get spirits, it's pretty much tie game for the pair.

So overall, there two units are incredibly close, but with Jill winning pre part 4. Nolan's pre 1-6 game shouldn't warrant a tier gap, as it didn't in the case of Zihark. So I propose moving Jill(T) to the bottom of high.

For the record, 'B' Aran by 1-6 is incredibly unlikely, so the comparison in 1-6 is even more favourable to Jill as Nolan has less of an avo lead (if he still has one at all).

Thoughts?

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2 Re: Jill(T) into high on Mon Nov 30, 2009 12:28 pm

Why is Jill getting a robe without even a mention of the opportunity cost, or anybody else who wants it?

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3 Re: Jill(T) into high on Mon Nov 30, 2009 1:26 pm

cheetah7071 wrote:Why is Jill getting a robe without even a mention of the opportunity cost, or anybody else who wants it?

You can check the SF tier list for the argument about that.

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4 Re: Jill(T) into high on Mon Nov 30, 2009 3:48 pm

I honestly can't be bothered to read through all that intensively. But is the argument that Jill(T) with a robe > any other unit with a robe, and therefore Jill will always get the robe, meaning there's no opportunity cost? Because that's the feeling I get when I skim through those posts. But if that's what's being thought, then clearly the entire concept of 'opportunity cost' is being misunderstood...

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5 Re: Jill(T) into high on Mon Nov 30, 2009 3:54 pm

Tino wrote:I honestly can't be bothered to read through all that intensively. But is the argument that Jill(T) with a robe > any other unit with a robe, and therefore Jill will always get the robe, meaning there's no opportunity cost? Because that's the feeling I get when I skim through those posts. But if that's what's being thought, then clearly the entire concept of 'opportunity cost' is being misunderstood...

No. There is most certainly an opportunity cost. I stressed this more than anything, I believe, though we did spend a lot of time on why Nolan shouldn't be flat-out denied a Dracoshield while Jill is fine with a Robe when the Robe has more competition.

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6 Re: Jill(T) into high on Mon Nov 30, 2009 3:58 pm

ChaosNinji wrote:
Tino wrote:I honestly can't be bothered to read through all that intensively. But is the argument that Jill(T) with a robe > any other unit with a robe, and therefore Jill will always get the robe, meaning there's no opportunity cost? Because that's the feeling I get when I skim through those posts. But if that's what's being thought, then clearly the entire concept of 'opportunity cost' is being misunderstood...

No. There is most certainly an opportunity cost. I stressed this more than anything, I believe, though we did spend a lot of time on why Nolan shouldn't be flat-out denied a Dracoshield while Jill is fine with a Robe when the Robe has more competition.


While there is an opportunity cost for the robe that shouldn't be denied, the competition for the draco is better than the competition for the robe, sorry.

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7 Re: Jill(T) into high on Mon Nov 30, 2009 4:12 pm

Correct. After all, we can speak of a choice having an opportunity cost when there is an alternative available. Though it's important to note that this applies if the options are mutually exclusive. For those who don't know what that is, it means these options cannot be true simultaneously. Roll a die. You can roll only one of six sides. Therefore, all sides (1 through 6) are mutually exclusive possibilities when the die is rolled.

Anyway, is there an alternative to giving the robe to Jill? As far as I'm concerned, there definitely is. Even if there weren't any other units to give the robe to, there was still the alternative option of selling it, which means there would still be an opportunity cost value. The same applies to Nolan getting a draco.

I'm not exactly familiar with this game, but I'll just assume the robe has more competition than the draco, like you said. The problem is, even when there are twenty other units who want the robe while there is only one other unit who wants the draco, it doesn't matter that there is much more competition for the robe. After all, the value of the opportunity cost is defined by taking the value of the next-best alternative. In other words, Jill getting a robe gets weighed against the next-best unit for the robe getting the robe, while Nolan getting a draco gets weighed against the next-best unit for the draco getting the draco.

If Jill with robe is better than the next-best unit with robe by a larger margin than if Nolan with robe is better than the next-best unit with draco, we can speak of an advantage for Jill. After all, giving Jill the robe yielded in less overall costs than giving Nolan the draco. However, what if both were the best units for both items respectively? All it would mean is that Jill has a slightly higher chance of getting the robe than Nolan has of getting the draco. But it's such a minimal difference it can barely be noticed, probably.

I am not saying one > another, I'm just saying that, based on what I said above, if both are the top contenders for those two items, either give both of them their item, or give neither of them their item for comparison purposes. If Jill, for example, is the top contender for the robe, while Nolan is like the fourth in line for the draco, then we can speak of an advantage for Jill if and only if both get their item in the comparison and the profit returned from giving Jill the robe is greater than the profit returned from giving Nolan the draco.

edit: typed while Narga posted....

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8 Re: Jill(T) into high on Mon Nov 30, 2009 4:13 pm

Narga_Rocks wrote:
While there is an opportunity cost for the robe that shouldn't be denied, the competition for the draco is better than the competition for the robe, sorry.

Explain that one to me.

Jill, Aran, Micaiah, Laura, maybe even Nolan, Edward, Leonardo, or (really, really stretching things) Rafiel all want the Robe.

Nolan and maybe Edward or Leonardo want the Shield.

???

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9 Re: Jill(T) into high on Mon Nov 30, 2009 4:15 pm

Jill, Aran, Micaiah, Laura, maybe even Nolan, Edward, Leonardo, or (really, really stretching things) Rafiel all want the Robe.

So they can go from getting ORKOd to ORKOd.

Why would Miccy Sue or Leo care about it? Miccy has shit durability to the point where it likely won't help her at all, and Leo getting attacked just wastes time in the first place.

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10 Re: Jill(T) into high on Mon Nov 30, 2009 4:22 pm

sPortsman wrote:
So they can go from getting ORKOd to ORKOd.

OHKO'd to 2RKO'd, you mean.

Enemies in 1-5 will OHKO a level 7 Laura without the Robe. With it, she's 2HKO'd, and since they don't double (except for Myrmidons), she's 2RKO'd. She's much more flexible.


Miccy has shit durability to the point where it likely won't help her at all

The one who is 95% utility and needs HP to heal in Part 1, so more HP is always better for her?


and Leo getting attacked just wastes time in the first place.

Thus "maybe".

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11 Re: Jill(T) into high on Mon Nov 30, 2009 4:53 pm

ChaosNinji wrote:
Narga_Rocks wrote:
While there is an opportunity cost for the robe that shouldn't be denied, the competition for the draco is better than the competition for the robe, sorry.

Explain that one to me.

Jill, Aran, Micaiah, Laura, maybe even Nolan, Edward, Leonardo, or (really, really stretching things) Rafiel all want the Robe.

Nolan and maybe Edward or Leonardo want the Shield.

???
#1: We have two Robes and only one Shield.
#2: Aran is the only real competition. Jill is so far above Micaiah, Laura, Edward, Nolan, and Leonardo in terms of opportunity cost for taking a Robe they shouldn't even be considered when discussing her. Micaiah is Thani-bombs and staves, Laura is staves, Edward cap rams HP as it is, Leonardo shouldn't be taking counters, Nolan much prefers the Dracoshield. Aran is the only one who really contends for a Robe when Jill is around, but he doesn't really need one for a while so he can wait until the 1-8 Robe.
#3: Nolan is probably best with a Shield, but he isn't as far above others as Jill is for a Robe. The main contenders for the Shield I would say are Zihark and Edward (not immediately for Edward, though), maybe Sothe, and maybe even Jill.

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12 Re: Jill(T) into high on Mon Nov 30, 2009 5:22 pm

Red Fox of Fire wrote:
#1: We have two Robes and only one Shield.

And Jill doesn't exist for 1-4 and 1-5, while everyone else who wants a Robe exists at this point, which, by the way, is the one that Kirsche gave her, and the 1-8 Robe can't even be used by her to help in 1-8 (or 1-9, in Micaiah's case) because "guiz its a trap".


Micaiah is Thani-bombs and staves

She doesn't have staves in Part 1. Laura can't heal everyone; that's where Sacrifice comes in.

I mean, since Laura gets so much credit for healing in Part 1, Micaiah's Sacrificing should certainly make a difference.


Laura is staves

She's not ORKO'd. Ergo, you don't have to shield her every waking second of every day.


Edward cap rams HP as it is

He also has a pitiful 19 base HP. 85% HP growth is nice, but he'd certainly like it to boost his performance.


Leonardo shouldn't be taking counters

[s]But he has Cancel![/s]

Situations where he has to are inevitable. He's still not a very good contender, admittedly, but I digress.


Nolan much prefers the Dracoshield.

Which he was being denied...!


Aran is the only one who really contends for a Robe when Jill is around, but he doesn't really need one for a while so he can wait until the 1-8 Robe.

You mean like Jill?

Also, remember that whole "Edward has a bad base HP" thing? 24 base HP with a 50% growth at level 7 isn't exactly great, either. Getting out of the hole, etc., etc.


#3: Nolan is probably best with a Shield, but he isn't as far above others as Jill is for a Robe.

And yet more people are vying for the Robe than the Shield.


The main contenders for the Shield I would say are Zihark

We're going to save the Shield until 1-6-1 just to make Zihark even better than he was in Part 1 (he's no Taur, but he's no Edward, either), and be slightly more durable in Part 3?


and Edward (not immediately for Edward, though)

He'd still prefer the Robe.


maybe Sothe

He goes from rape -> rape offense and decent defense -> suck to rape -> rape offense and still decent defense -> suck with a shield.


and maybe even Jill.

I rather doubt it.

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13 Re: Jill(T) into high on Mon Nov 30, 2009 5:45 pm

[quote="ChaosNinji"]
Red Fox of Fire wrote:
And Jill doesn't exist for 1-4 and 1-5, while everyone else who wants a Robe exists at this point, which, by the way, is the one that Kirsche gave her, and the 1-8 Robe can't even be used by her to help in 1-8 (or 1-9, in Micaiah's case) because "guiz its a trap".
Jill makes the best use of the Robe despite her later arrival, which is only 1 map (You should be getting the Robe at the end of 1-4). I can pull up the numbers if you need them, I think I did it once in the SF tier topic. Might have been a Shield though.

She doesn't have staves in Part 1. Laura can't heal everyone; that's where Sacrifice comes in.

I mean, since Laura gets so much credit for healing in Part 1, Micaiah's Sacrificing should certainly make a difference.
Micaiah gets credit for it, but what sounds better: Allowing your melee unit to take more hits or allowing your paper unit to heal a bit more HP on occasion? (and it's only a bit because she usually has enough to heal allies to full health anyway)

She's not ORKO'd. Ergo, you don't have to shield her every waking second of every day.
She'll still be ORKOd on occasion (She gets doubled a lot), but otherwise it's the same situation as Micaiah. Using a Robe on Jill is simply a much better investment.

He also has a pitiful 19 base HP. 85% HP growth is nice, but he'd certainly like it to boost his performance.
By the time he's able to use the Robe it's 1-5. Level 11 Edward has 24.95 HP, practically 25. I hardly think that one map will make a significant difference.

Which he was being denied...!
Because he isn't as good with it as Jill is with a Robe. I think comparing him when given the Shield is probably fair, it just isn't quite as likely as Jill with a Robe.


Aran is the only one who really contends for a Robe when Jill is around, but he doesn't really need one for a while so he can wait until the 1-8 Robe.

You mean like Jill?
What do you mean? Jill sees immediate returns from a Robe.

Also, remember that whole "Edward has a bad base HP" thing? 24 base HP with a 50% growth at level 7 isn't exactly great, either. Getting out of the hole, etc., etc.
That's why he's the other contender, but with that 70% Def growth and no wings to take advantage of he doesn't actually need the HP boost as much.

And yet more people are vying for the Robe than the Shield.
Irrelevant. Jill is a better use of a Robe over the next best than Nolan is for a Shield over the next best, and I get two Robes to one Shield.

We're going to save the Shield until 1-6-1 just to make Zihark even better than he was in Part 1 (he's no Taur, but he's no Edward, either), and be slightly more durable in Part 3?
Zihark's returns on the Shield are actually pretty similar to Nolan's. Zihark has higher Def for a while but Nolan has more HP.


He'd still prefer the Robe.
Not when he's capping HP anyway.


I rather doubt it.
? Okay. Point is, it's true.

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14 Re: Jill(T) into high on Mon Nov 30, 2009 5:46 pm

Red Fox of Fire wrote:
ChaosNinji wrote:
Narga_Rocks wrote:
While there is an opportunity cost for the robe that shouldn't be denied, the competition for the draco is better than the competition for the robe, sorry.

Explain that one to me.

Jill, Aran, Micaiah, Laura, maybe even Nolan, Edward, Leonardo, or (really, really stretching things) Rafiel all want the Robe.

Nolan and maybe Edward or Leonardo want the Shield.

???
#1: We have two Robes and only one Shield.
#2: Aran is the only real competition. Jill is so far above Micaiah, Laura, Edward, Nolan, and Leonardo in terms of opportunity cost for taking a Robe they shouldn't even be considered when discussing her. Micaiah is Thani-bombs and staves, Laura is staves, Edward cap rams HP as it is, Leonardo shouldn't be taking counters, Nolan much prefers the Dracoshield. Aran is the only one who really contends for a Robe when Jill is around, but he doesn't really need one for a while so he can wait until the 1-8 Robe.
#3: Nolan is probably best with a Shield, but he isn't as far above others as Jill is for a Robe. The main contenders for the Shield I would say are Zihark and Edward (not immediately for Edward, though), maybe Sothe, and maybe even Jill.


Basically this. It really isn't important how many units are competition. Technically, if you want to look at numbers.

1 draco
2 robes

x units in part 1.

If you don't care about how well they actually use it and what they bring to the team, this means that every single unit in part 1 is competing. By simple math, the competition for the draco is clearly stiffer than the competition for the robe. In fact, it is twice as tough.

With a more reasonable outlook, you basically look at the top 3 candidates for the draco and the top 4 candidates for the robes. Then figure out how close their gains are compared to Jill's or Nolan's gains. Also, defensive skills/supports/stat boosters are not just about defense.

To refine Ether's example from SF:

1 unit is 3RKOd and becomes 6RKOd and he 3RKOs the enemy.
1 unit is 2RKOd and becomes 4 to 5 RKOd and she 1RKOs the enemy.

By giving a unit a draco or robe, you are making them more durable, sure, but what does more durable actually mean?

More exposure to enemies on a single enemy phase or more exposure to enemies before needing healing.

So you are making one unit able to face more enemies than it could before with the same outside assistance. But the point of the game isn't to be the enemies' punching bag. The point is to kill them. In some maps it is only to kill specific enemies, and in others it is to go to a specific location, but typically there are enemies in the way. Most of the time, the only way to the objective is through them. Since not every unit can have pass, this means you need to kill them. Sometimes the goal is rout and you would have to kill them even if you had a unit that was 1008RKOd with 30 move and Pass.

So depending on move the second unit is more likely to be far and away the better choice, because while the first unit becomes more durable than the second would be, the second unit helps out the goal of the game more. Giving the unit with better offence more exposure to enemies increases efficiency far more than increasing the exposure of a guy that 3RKOs.



Also, Volug, Sothe, Micaiah, Edward, Zihark, Jill are all good users of the draco. Well, Micaiah only rarely gets a benefit. She can be 2HKOd instead of one by some units that don't double her thanks to the draco. 1-P and 1-5 are the only examples I can currently think of, but there are bound to be one or two others. Hey, it's similar to suggesting Laura for the robe.
The other 5 are more reasonable users of the draco. Yes, Sothe's 14 defence and Volug's 13 defence will hold them back at times. They will need either Laura or a vulnerary or a concoction at times. Getting either of them up to 16 defence will significantly reduce that. Cats in 1-4 do 4 damage to Sothe, now 2. Tigers do either 10 or 12. Now 8 or 10. Sothe has 35 hp. 3RKOd by 26mt tigers. Now 4. 4RKOd by 24mt tigers. Now 5. 1 26mt tiger + 2 24mt tigers + 1 cat = 36 damage. Now 28. With Sothe's hp and def growths, he's not likely getting either in the 1 or 2 levels he'll have by now. Also in part 3 it should let him not die from 2 cats.
Ed reaches 3HKO from cats. Guarantees 2HKO from 26 mt tigers, since 3 levels is only a ~70% chance to be able to vulnerary to full hp after a hit. Zihark can't take the ~6 cavalier rush in 1-6-2 without dodging at least ~2 attacks. With a draco he likely only needs to dodge one. I don't remember specifically how many attack and how much he needs to dodge, hence the ~ symbols. Point is, one less dodge is needed to survive. His avo is far from reliable at this point. Even with Resolve he can still die easily enough. It will also help with cats in 3-6, and undoubtedly will help him survive in 1-E. And he at least can ORKO everything from 1-7 to 1-E (including Bandits and Generals) even if it takes a brave for some of them.
Volug runs into issues even in 1-5 if you don't self heal or he actually dodges something. Also 1-E. 1-7 doesn't have issues. 1-8 kinda does if you don't just let Nailah do all the work (speed up him getting S if he does it). Helps him survive more in 1-6-2 when he runs off on his own.


All this and more is what Nolan faces to get the draco. Jill faces some of this as well for the robe, though Sothe and Volug benefit from the draco more because as def approaches enemy mt it has increasing effects. But Jill has the advantage over Nolan in that there is a really good reason to expose her to more enemies -> she can kill many of them. Exposing Nolan to more enemies isn't as big a boon to efficiency.




And Jill doesn't exist for 1-4 and 1-5, while everyone else who wants a Robe exists at this point, which, by the way, is the one that Kirsche gave her, and the 1-8 Robe can't even be used by her to help in 1-8 (or 1-9, in Micaiah's case) because "guiz its a trap".
Irrelevant. Especially the part about 1-4. She gains throughout the game. Aran stops gaining from the Robe after 3-6 and also doesn't gain much in 1-8 and 1-E due to massive defense. I pointed this out already. I also pointed out on SF that Jill's gains in 1-6 alone from it are superior to what Aran gets in 1-5 and 1-8.



She doesn't have staves in Part 1. Laura can't heal everyone; that's where Sacrifice comes in.

I mean, since Laura gets so much credit for healing in Part 1, Micaiah's Sacrificing should certainly make a difference.
Covered this too. Micaiah sacrificing will typically just end up using all her hp anyway. Even after a robe your units have more hp than her. So she's not exactly sacrificing twice anyway. And the 17 or so hp she gives to a unit will be enough to keep it alive long enough as it is. Plus, it is not nearly as significant as what Jill brings to the team.

I'm not sure you understand this idea. We aren't saying other units gain nothing. Everybody that hasn't capped hp gains something. The question is how big is that gain?


She's not ORKO'd. Ergo, you don't have to shield her every waking second of every day.
Is that really superior to Jill's killing more things and going more places and using her full 8 move now that she won't die on us?


He also has a pitiful 19 base HP. 85% HP growth is nice, but he'd certainly like it to boost his performance.
So again, that's better than what Jill brings? Keep in mind his benefit stops around 1-7 or so from this. And he doesn't double. And he'll probably go from 2RKOd to 3RKOd. Even if his offence = Jill's, he still wouldn't be able to bring it to as much use. Also he has less move in the two most important chapters of comparison for the 1-4 robe: 1-6-1 and 1-6-2.



[s]But he has Cancel![/s]

Situations where he has to are inevitable. He's still not a very good contender, admittedly, but I digress.
Do we need to define opportunity cost for you again? What does "best alternative forgone" mean to you anyway?


Which he was being denied...!
Pointing out that he faces a higher cost for the draco than she does for the robe, or that the team's economic profit from giving her the robe is >>> the economic profit to the team of giving Nolan the draco isn't technically the same as denying him a draco.




Aran is the only one who really contends for a Robe when Jill is around, but he doesn't really need one for a while so he can wait until the 1-8 Robe.


You mean like Jill?
1-6. Think about the pegs. Think about the other enemies. Think about how great it is if Jill won't die on us from trying to use her. Ditto 1-6-2. She has about 5 more move than Aran through the thickets, for example. She can get to enemies so early there's like 4 of them instead of 2 at a time.

Also, remember that whole "Edward has a bad base HP" thing? 24 base HP with a 50% growth at level 7 isn't exactly great, either. Getting out of the hole, etc., etc.
He isn't used all that frequently, you know. I'd say he gains in 1-5 and 1-6 and gets dropped. When he's actually used? Meh. Give him the draco and a Nolan support. Since Jill(T) is on the field (she is the one being compared), you might as well make sure she can do more than kill one unit, take a counter, drop to 2HKOd status, face one enemy on enemy phase, and then die from a second if we didn't play keep away. That's what 3HKOd means in part 1. I'd rather just use Edward to KO stuff in one hit that have been weakened.

Again, it's not that he gains nothing, it's just that you are looking at a hill (Edward getting it) and ignoring a mountain (Jill getting it).




He goes from rape -> rape offense and decent defense -> suck to rape -> rape offense and still decent defense -> suck with a shield.
I don't think you realize how quickly 35hp/14def disappears. There is a reason a stat capped transfer Sothe is so godly. He isn't restricted in part 1 like the normal one is. That extra def goes a long way to not needing to heal him every two turns.



I rather doubt it.
Why not? 13 def base is nice, but 15 def is better. With just 24 hp that would help a lot. Think, if you are 3HKOd by 21 to 24 mt, and get a draco, you are now 3HKOd by 23 to 26 mt, and 21 and 22 mt now 4HKO you. With a robe, she hits 31 hp and moves her 3HKOd threshold to 24mt to 28mt. Not all that different for the 4HKOd area, considering she just gets up to 23 instead of 22. There aren't all that many enemies with 27mt+ to worry about, so the extra fluff with the robe isn't so much. The only truly important difference is 23 mt 4HKOs with a robe but 3HKOs with a shield. Except even that just lasts until she procs anything.

Aside from mages, the draco and the robe are rather similar for her.


And yet more people are vying for the Robe than the Shield.
Again, it doesn't matter. Do you want an economics lesson? Besides, how did you come up with that anyway? There are 2 dracos, one robe, and 20 units in part 1 (yes, I'm including Nailah, BK, Muarim). If you are including examples like Micaiah and Laura for the robe, why aren't you including bad users of the draco?



We're going to save the Shield until 1-6-1 just to make Zihark even better than he was in Part 1 (he's no Taur, but he's no Edward, either), and be slightly more durable in Part 3?
Simply put? Yes. 30hp/13def doesn't go very far. Average mt in 1-6-1 without pegs is around 23 mt. He's 3HKOd. Shield? 4HKOd. As for the pegs, sure, they are weak, but when you are borderline 3HKOd by almost everything, taking 3 damage is going to knock you into 3HKO without the whole "borderline" thing. 15 def means he takes miniscule damage. 16 mt causes 1 instead of 3, and he's taking 8 on average instead of 10. Thickets make the case even stronger. Cavalier rush has between 20mt and 24 mt. And wind edge dude with 17mt. Zihark is 3 or 4 HKOd depending on what attacks, but there are a lot more of them than that. They move in, move out. That shield puts Zihark up to 4HKO minimum and many combinations need 5 hits. With 5 guys attacking, his chance of survival increases significantly. Enemy mt just goes up from there. He's easily 3HKOd in 1-7 from most enemies. Almost 2HKOd by some, so even the low mt enemies cause a headache when they drop him to 2HKO range anyway. If an enemy 5HKOs Zihark, that doesn't matter when the 3HKO guys are more numerous and two hits from the strong ones plus one from the weak kills him anyway. Small reprive in 1-8 if he's proc'd hp already. Still, he could be 5HKOd instead of 4HKOd.

1-E?
Gah. At least a quarter of the map 2HKOs him.

3-6?
I'd like Zihark more if he could take a cat + tiger without dying. Jill support and draco? It's possible. Even with giving him Volug support (no +def), he will at least be able to take 2 cats without dying.

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15 Re: Jill(T) into high on Mon Nov 30, 2009 6:08 pm

And just as I was about to finish responding to Fox, Narga posts a page. x_x

I don't have the time or energy to respond, and I don't even remember what I was trying to argue.

Oh, wait! Now I do. The competition of the Robe being more than that of the Shield.

2 things I would like to say.

Firstly, how is it that the amount of units who want a stat booster and are actually viable to get it has absolutely no bearing on the opportunity cost of taking the stat booster? She's better than everyone else with it (though I'm still not convinced that the difference between the characters is as large as you seem to make it), but that doesn't nullify that everyone wants it.

Also, you keep claiming that the Robe benefits Jill more than the Shield benefits Nolan, however, he has access to it for 6 more maps, and, while I haven't checked the numbers, I am certain that it benefits him; Fox, you know this from when Jackal was trying to give the Shield to Edward and you compared Edward with the Shield to Nolan with the Shield.

Secondly,

Pointing out that he faces a higher cost for the draco than she does for the robe, or that the team's economic profit from giving her the robe is >>> the economic profit to the team of giving Nolan the draco isn't technically the same as denying him a draco.

The two have no bearing on each other.

Giving the Robe to Jill since she is the best contender for it is the best choice for the team (don't run with this and say I agree with you, I don't).
Giving the Shield to Nolan since he is the best contender is still the best choice for the team.

They aren't competing for the same stat booster in this comparison, so the economic profits from giving each character their respective stat boosters, and having one possibly > the other doesn't affect the latter; they're still the best to use it.

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16 Re: Jill(T) into high on Mon Nov 30, 2009 6:53 pm

And just as I was about to finish responding to Fox, Narga posts a page. x_x

I don't have the time or energy to respond, and I don't even remember what I was trying to argue.

Oh, wait! Now I do. The competition of the Robe being more than that of the Shield.

2 things I would like to say.

Firstly, how is it that the amount of units who want a stat booster and are actually viable to get it has absolutely no bearing on the opportunity cost of taking the stat booster?

It comes from the definition of opportunity cost. If you learn nothing else from my post and Red Fox's post, learn this:

Opportunity cost is defined as the benefit from the best alternative forgone. Check Int's sig on SF if you want more, but I said to Vykan already:

If doritos is 8, caramilk is 5, junior mints is 4:

The opportunity cost of choosing doritos is 5, hence its ecnomic profit is 3. It wouldn't matter if there were 5 billion other options. If none of them gave more than 5 utility, the opportunity cost never rises above 5. That's simply from the definition of opportunity cost.


She's better than everyone else with it (though I'm still not convinced that the difference between the characters is as large as you seem to make it), but that doesn't nullify that everyone wants it.
No, it just means she gets it anyway. There is a cost involved. In my above example, doritos only gives 3 instead of 8. It does, however, mean that choosing anything else results in negative utility and thus should be avoided. Choosing Caramilk, as you should be able to tell, results in a negative economic profit. It in fact has an economic profit of -3. So depending on what you mean, it does nullify it. It means that it doesn't stop her from getting it. It just means there is a cost associated with the action.


Also, you keep claiming that the Robe benefits Jill more than the Shield benefits Nolan, however, he has access to it for 6 more maps, and, while I haven't checked the numbers, I am certain that it benefits him; Fox, you know this from when Jackal was trying to give the Shield to Edward and you compared Edward with the Shield to Nolan with the Shield.
That's not how this works. You are back to normal profit. Looking at how long he benefits and how much he gets. The gains from an item need to be compared to the gains we'd get form another unit with the item. This leads to various things like what we'd get out of using the shield elsewhere and the fact that Nolan isn't the only unit capable of using the draco from 1-1 or earlier. We aren't claiming she gets more out of it period. We are claiming that the economic profit from giving Jill the robe is >> the economic profit from giving Nolan the shield. That's entirely different from what you are suggesting we are saying.


Secondly,


Pointing out that he faces a higher cost for the draco than she does for the robe, or that the team's economic profit from giving her the robe is >>> the economic profit to the team of giving Nolan the draco isn't technically the same as denying him a draco.



The two have no bearing on each other.
What do you mean? I'm not technically denying him the draco. I'm saying that if you give him the draco and give her the robe, when you make a comparison of their ability Nolan comes into the comparison with a higher cost. You need to keep in mind that if they come out even from a comparison when both are given the item, Nolan would then be < Jill because the cost to get him there was > getting Jill there. If he ends up at 7 from the shield and she ends up at 7 from the robe, but the next best option for the shield gets us a 4 and the next best option for the robe gets a 3, she comes out ahead. 7-4 < 7-3

It could even be 8 and 5 versus 7 and 3
8-5 < 7-3

This is why it is relevant. This is why we have to point it out. Pointing something out is different from denying. I'm not denying his bump that he'd get with the shield, I'm just trying to get the point across that his comes with a bigger cost than hers.


Giving the Robe to Jill since she is the best contender for it is the best choice for the team (don't run with this and say I agree with you, I don't).
Giving the Shield to Nolan since he is the best contender is still the best choice for the team.
Okay, and if he is the best candidate, then he can have it, but his gains from the item aren't as significant. Plus I'm still not convinced that he even is the best candidate, to be honest. You bring up Ed with the robe against Jill. I say Ed wants the draco almost as much as the robe in the short term and he wants it much more than a robe in the long term. In all, he'd be better off with a shield. But Sothe also has gains from the shield, though his mostly start in 1-4. It's only a 3 chapter difference.


They aren't competing for the same stat booster in this comparison, so the economic profits from giving each character their respective stat boosters, and having one possibly > the other doesn't affect the latter; they're still the best to use it.
It just means that when comparing the two with the items it needs to be remembered how much more it cost to get Nolan where he is than what it cost to get Jill to where she is.

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17 Re: Jill(T) into high on Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:03 pm

I don't claim to know a thing about economics. If that's the system that you're using... :/

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18 Re: Jill(T) into high on Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:22 pm

ChaosNinji wrote:I don't claim to know a thing about economics. If that's the system that you're using... :/


I know it is brought up in economics, but I have to ask how it isn't simply a logical result. Only one unit can get a single item. Therefore when looking at what it costs a unit to get it, it should be logical that only the best other candidate matters. If I have 3 units, each unit takes it from 2 other units. It is worth talking about multiple units to try to determine which other unit is the second best candidate, but that's all.

Well, since not every unit must be in play, coming up with a pecking order of at least 4 units is probably recommended. If you have A, B, C, D as the top 4 candidates, then say:
A = 8
B = 6
C = 5
D = 4

Also, A is played 100% because it is the unit we are thinking about giving the item. When A isn't in play, it isn't relevant whether or not it gets the item.

Say B is played 60% of the time alongside A.
Say that of the 40% of the time B is not in play but A is, C is in play three quarters of it. So in total, 30% of the time A and C are in play while B is not.
Of the times where A is in play but both B and C are not in play (only 10% of all tier playthroughs), D is in play. (This is unrealistic, of course, since it is potentially non-zero% for the times where none of B, C, and D are in play. But I'm not extending the list into 10 more units with 4 or less gain and around 1% of the time where everyone above them isn't in play.)

So, the result for opportunity cost is that 60% of the time it is 6, 30% it is 5, and 10% it is 4.

6 x .6 + 5 x .3 + 4 x .1 = 5.5.

So from an all playthroughs perspective, the opportunity cost is 5.5 and the gain was 8.

So A gets the robe and the team gains 2.5 utility over their other options.

Again, while this could be seen as an economics thing, it is also a logic thing. If B gets the item, C can't get it anyway, so why should C's gains matter if C gains less? C only matters in situations where B is not in play. I don't actually get why the rest should even matter. Especially when you go down to dudes like Leo. There can be only one.


And like I kept saying before, if you try to apply the every candidate matters idea, then you end up with 20 candidates for everything. Some of them suck royally for the item (BK for a robe???) but they are still there. It applies to both the draco and the robe. You already ruled out irrelevant candidates for the draco (and some that were potentially relevant), why not do the same for the robe?




Edit: Actually, Tino's second post was a good non-biased look at it, aside from saying
Jill has a slightly higher chance of getting the robe than Nolan has of getting the draco

I take issue with the use of "higher chance". I figure if a unit is best for something, then might as well give it to them. If we gained more from giving it to someone else, the first unit wouldn't be best for it, would (s)he?
Note that I look at his post in the generic example sense, so when I say that my issue is the words "higher chance" I'm not saying Jill is guaranteed the item while Nolan is not. If Nolan is truly the best user by enough of a margin to really stand out, then fine. To me, a 5.1 over a 5.0 would not constitute "really stand out". 6 over 5, maybe.

Aside from that, his post seems like a useful intro.

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19 Re: Jill(T) into high on Mon Nov 30, 2009 11:29 pm

I take issue with the use of "higher chance". I figure if a unit is best for something, then might as well give it to them. If we gained more from giving it to someone else, the first unit wouldn't be best for it, would (s)he?

The way I view this is as follows:

There are multiple interested parties for stat boosters. Though there is only true benefit when giving the best party one, that still gives you some large costs if those stat boosters would have helped out other parties immensely, too. If unit x can be granted the ability to survive four hits before dying from getting a robe, rather than three hits, while unit y will be able to survive five hits instead of the four hits he used to be able to survive, both experience a significant increase in durability. However, there are two options we can choose from here.

1: we take two units with average durability (give x the robe)
2: we take one unit with great (above average) durability and one unit with poor (below average) durability

There is no clear-cut answer to which one is the best. The team has the same average durability no matter who we give it to. This would change though, if we had two units who were both getting killed in four hits (say, x and y again), but x would have a hp/def combination that, with the help of a robe, lets him get killed in six hits instead of four, while y still gets killed in five. In that case it is obvious we shouldn't give y the robe, and there's a 100% chance x will get it (assuming x and y are the only units available, of course).

However, let's go back to the first scenario. How do we decide which of the two options is best? Simply put, I don't see a way out that's not complicated. Or maybe I do, but that would also be a rather iffy way of determining who is best for it. In the first example, both units were available to survive one additional round. They had equal absolute durability increase. However, x had a 33.3% increase in durability, y only a 20%. So we could say x should be the one to take it, as his relative gain in durability is greater than that of y. This however, causes problems when we're talking about people who get 1-2RKOed, and they can survive one more hit with a robe. That's a 100% increase for the unit that gets 1RKOed, but it still has terrible durability, but there's no way we can properly measure that.

So what do we do? I frankly am not sure, but the best way I see is to say there's not a 100% chance one unit gets an item over another, unless it is 100% clear that unit is the absolute best for it. As mentioned, Im’not familiar with this game, but I’ll try to explain what I mean again using actual in-game material. So, say end-game. That’s an easy benchmark for me as it’s a moment kirsche used in the opening post.

Note: ‘simple’ averages suck. Boo FEP for being down at time of writing : ( Also, I’m using the Jill and Nolan from kirsche’s post, because that’s easier for me than taking a full twenty hours trying to figure out which units are at what levels with what stats at what point… (what?) So this has nothing to do with bias or anything, I simply used those because they were an easily accesible resource for me, and all I do is illustrate a point anyway, not say one > another.

17 Jill: 25-26 hp (32-33), 15 def, 5 res, 64 avo (C Volug)

Looking at those numbers, non-robe Jill gets 2HKOed on average (~30 atk), which turns into a 3HKO when she does take a robe.

18 Nolan: 34 hp (41), 12 def, 7 res, 72 avo (B Zihark)

Nolan too gets 2HKOed on average, which is also a 3HKO when he takes a robe.

Of course, this is just a snapshot, but it does illustrate the point I’m trying to make. Judging from this, there’s no real benefit from giving the robe to Jill instead of Nolan. What good would a draco have done him? It would have increased his average durability to a 3HKO too. My point? Both can do the same with a robe. If Nolan doesn’t get the draco for whatever reason there may be (because I have no idea how much it benefits other units), then both should be compared either with or without the robe, but not just with only one of them having it, which is exactly what I was trying to say earlier in this post.

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20 Re: Jill(T) into high on Sat Dec 19, 2009 1:27 pm

Instead of this robe mess, I think the possibility of instant sealing will close the durability gap.
Promotion gives +2 hp, +2 str, +2 mag, +1 skl, +1 spd, +0 lck, +2 def, +2 res; kind of like transfers

So, 14/1 Jill (T):
26 hp, 15 str, 3 mag, 15 skl, 18 spd, 14 lck, 15 def, 5 res

She has +2 hp, +4 str, +3 skl, +3 spd, and +2 def/res. Not bad.

Most importantly, the seal gives her the def and hp necessary to compete with Nolan defensively (+2 hp/+2 def vs +7 hp from robe is close).

Exp gain might be a problem, but from the formulas I've seen, while Nolan would be gaining ~10 exp more than Jill per kill, Jill could keep up since her speed allows her to kill more by herself and gain better exp while Nolan is chipping.

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