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Jake>Athena

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1 Jake>Athena on Sat Nov 28, 2009 12:19 am

A decently big gap between the two, but I want to illustrate a point.

So Athena joins in 6x, and probably won't get a chance to see too much action due to the positioning of her village. She probably won't have gained a level, so lets see how she looks in Chapter 7:

Athena 10/0: 25 HP, 17 Atk (+1) (Steel Sword), 13 AS, 7 Def

Anything with 20+ Attack is going to 2RKO her. Unfortunately not Athena, WTD gives lance users +1 might, leaving only Archers and the thief that don't 2RKO her. Archers are also conveniently the only enemy that she can double, although she will still only be able to 2RKO. Against anybody else? She 7RKOs the Wyvern, 3RKOs Mercs and Pegs, and will 4RKO those Cav reinforcements (no enemy stats for Chapter 7 Cavs, but even Chapter 2 Cavs would be 4RKO'd). What makes things worse for her is that she is locked to 1 range. When she's 2RKO'd by almost everybody on the map, her offence is going to be severely, severely limited.

So Athena is definitely lacking in her beginning stages. Does she stack up when Jake joins? Lets find out by looking at them in Chapter 12...

Jake 1/0: 20 HP, 19 Atk (Arrowspate, +2 mt), 14 Def
Athena 14/0: 28 HP, 22 Atk (+3) (Silver Sword), 15 AS, 7 Def

Lets take a look at Chapter 12. 21 Atk is now the magic number to 2RKO Athena. There is one thief on the entire map that has 20 Attack. Everything else will 2RKO her. Unfortunately for Athena, she's still limited to 1 range as well. Her durability holds her otherwise decent offense. She is able to double unpromoted enemies like Cavs for a 2RKO. Taking a counter every round makes her too much of a high maintenance unit to be effective.

Jake on the other hand is a no-maintenance unit. He can just sit back and chip enemies without a care in the world. But why is he getting +2 might? +2 might on Arrowspate costs $2000, or the price of a Silver Sword. You'll have to buy that weapon for Athena, so you might as well even out the funds. Keep in mind also that Athena will constantly lose 1 might for attacking lance users. This brings their attack within two points of each other. Admittedly Jake isn't doubling, but he doesn't have to worry about being shielded, being healed, being screwed if one of his attacks misses, he's fine and dandy in the backlines. I'd rather have a unit who does nothing but contribute positively to the team then somebody who does what everyone else on the team can (2RKO, or in some of the high/top tier character's cases: ORKO) but is much higher maintenance.

Chapter 16 might be a bit early for Athena to hit Level 20 due to her limited combat abilities. We'll say she's 18/0 and promote her. Jake gets increased experience thanks to his class, and comes severely underlevelled. B2BD had him at Level 16 by Chapter 16. This seems a bit too high, so I'll knock him down 3 levels to Level 13.

Athena 18/1: 37 HP, 25 Atk (+3) (Silver Sword), 19 AS, 10 Def
Jake 13: 25 HP, 24 Atk (Stonehoist), 16 Def

Athena's AS unfortunately doesn't allow her to double anything except for Cavs/Paladins (and Armors I suppose). Whats even more embarrassing is that she is still 2RKOing these guys, while the rest of the team can likely either Ridersbane them, or outright ORKO them (like Cord/Barst). So apart from the Cavs/Paladins, she's doing exactly the same offensively as Jake, unless she doesn't have WTD. Whats even more embarrassing is that she's still locked to 1 range (unless she wants to use lol Thunder Sword), and anything with 29 attack can ORKO her. This means that some Wyverns, Cav 8/10s, the Paladin and General STILL 2RKO her. Athena really isn't improving at all, as she's still high maintenance. Jake is still doing his job perfectly, able to snipe away at enemies to his hearts content. Take Wyverns for example. If he switches to Arrowspate, he leaves Wyverns with less then 10 HP left. Wyverns are arguably the biggest threats on the map, made much easier thanks to Jake.

Jake is still as low maintenance as they come, and does nothing but contribute positively to the team. Athena is still not doing anything offensively that the rest of the team can't already do, and she's still among the worst units defensively. I think that Jake's pure positive utility should mean that Athena drops below him.

Thoughts?

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2 Re: Jake>Athena on Sat Nov 28, 2009 12:35 am

It's known that Jake can contribute positively for no cost at all (unless you intend to forge or buy new weapons for them), but how much of a positive is it? The reason I settled on him being a middle of the road tier character is that Ballistians usually see less turns of action than most characters, especially in later parts of the map where they tend to get left behind and contribute less towards completing chapters.

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3 Re: Jake>Athena on Sat Nov 28, 2009 12:59 am

I'm not saying move Jake up, he seems fine where he is. I'm saying move Athena below Jake, perhaps into Lower Mid. Take Julian for example:

9/0 Julian: 22 HP, 15 Atk (+1) (Steel Sword), 15 AS (-1), 6 Def
10/0 Athena: 25 HP, 17 Atk (+1) (Steel Sword), 13 AS, 7 Def

They're both 2RKO'd by pretty much everything, but Julian can at least double more enemies in Chapter 7, and there's thief utility to break the tie.

15/0 Julian: 27 HP, 22 Atk (+3) (Silver Sword), 18 AS, 8 Def
15/0 Athena: 29 HP, 22 Atk (+3) (Silver Sword), 16 AS, 8 Def

Same story.

20 Julian: 31 HP, 25 Atk (+3) (Silver Sword), 21 AS, 9 Def
20/1 Athena: 39 HP, 26 Atk (+3) (Silver Sword), 20 AS, 10 Def

The HP lead is nice, but they're still generally 2RKO'd by the same enemies.

30 Julian: 39 HP, 29 Atk (+3) (Silver Sword), 26 AS, 12 Def
20/10 Athena: 45 HP, 28 Atk (+3) (Silver Sword), 24 AS, 11 Def

For these two, its Athena's occasional better durability for things like puny archers that 3RKO her vs. Julian's more frequent doubling, thief utility, and not needing a Master Seal. Pretty close, unless somebody thinks Peg-->Draco is a better choice. Sword users are so damn awful in this game.



Last edited by IOS on Sat Nov 28, 2009 1:02 am; edited 1 time in total

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4 Re: Jake>Athena on Sat Nov 28, 2009 1:00 am

I see. That proposal sounds more reasonable to me, especially with Julian accounted for.

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5 Re: Jake>Athena on Sat Nov 28, 2009 1:12 am

While we're at it, Navarre needs to move down too if we're assuming Myrmidon-->Swordmaster. If we're assuming Cav-->Draco instead, then I'll make a separate thread on why he should move lower (And I'll just say that being essentially statistically equal to Cav Matthis before promotion isn't going to necessarily make his performance improve).

EDIT: I looked at the Myrm Athena hype thread, and I found that it really glossed over some of Athena's faults, like her terrible defense and being locked to 1 range. It also said arbitrary things like "she doubles", but failed to mention that she still 2RKOs regardless. Might have to go chapter by chapter to show how mediocre Athena's performance really is. I'll probably just use something close to Int's levels in his pseudo efficient run, as he's using Myrm Athena anyways. And if it means anything, he compares her to Edward from FE10.

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6 Re: Jake>Athena on Sat Nov 28, 2009 4:26 am

Mekkah

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I hate to go with such a reply after a huge wall of numbers and text, but I always thought Peg Athena was standard fare, which gives her Riderbane access and more atk and flying and stuff...

I don't know what her post promo path would be so I will assume Dracoknight for now. Sniper is viable of course.

11/0 Peg Athena has 25.8 hp, 10.3 str, 9.5 spd, 8.1 def.
So something like
Iron Lance: 16 atk, 9-10 AS -- 26 hp, 8 def

It doesn't really look better at first, tbh.

Ch7:
Archers: 10/29 dmg, 3HKO. They now one-shot her, though if she gets a HP level-up she can survive a Steel Bow shot if my calcs are right.
Wyverns: 6/36 dmg, lolHKO. She's 2HKO'd in return.
Merc: 11/~30 dmg. 3HKO. They only have 16-17 atk on her, making her 3HKO'd, but she is also likely to get doubled (13-14 AS vs 9-10 AS), so assuming 2RKO'd is fair.
Pegs: 10-11/~31 dmg. 3HKO, 4HKO if she's unlucky. In return, they are like the Mercs, except with no WTD, so 2RKO'd.

Ch8: going to paste stats now to make it easier

11/0 Peg Athena:
w/ Iron Lance: 16 atk, 9-10 AS -- 26 hp, 8 def

Cav 3 (Steel Sword): 31 (32) HP, 22 atk, 97 (98) hit, 9 (10) AS, 7 (Cool def, 0 (1) res, 3 (4) crit

She 3RKOs at best, 4HKOs at worst. Gets like 4HKO'd in return though.

Archers are about the same.

Armor 3(Steel Lance): 33 (34) HP, 22 atk, 92 (93) hit, 3 (4) AS, 11 (12) def, 0 (1) res, 3 crit

Athena doubles for 10 or 12 damage total at most, so 3RKO. In return, they 2HKO her.

Horseman (Steel Bow):34 (35) HP, 17 (18) atk, 97 hit, 15 (16) AS, 6 def, 3 (4) res, 6 crit

She 4RKOs, and gets doubled in return. Not much more to say about them, then. Ouch.

Taking a quick look at Athena in Ch9. Back to Myrm again for that C swords and WTA.

12/0 Myrm Athena: 26 hp, 9-10 str, 14 spd, 7 def.
Steel: 18-19 atk

Pirate 3 (Steel Axe): 33 HP, 23 (24) atk, 90 (91) hit, 9 AS, 5 def, 2 (3) crit
Hand Axe: 33 HP, 21 (22) atk, 80 (81) hit, 9 AS, 5 def, 2 (3) crit

Pirate 5 (Steel Axe): 35 (36) HP, 24 (25) atk, 90 (91) hit, 9 AS, 6 def, 1 res, 2 (3) crit
Devil Axe: 35 (36) HP, 31 (32) atk, 120 (121) hit, 9 AS, 6 def, 1 res, 2 (3) crit

Even if a Pirate only has 21 atk, she is getting 2HKO'd, though extremely borderline. She doubles for like 26 dmg though. She has ~27 avo factoring in WTA, so she's still facing over 70% display from the 90 hit guys.

I must say I'm disappointed...Athena actually looks really bad so far.

Maybe more later.

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7 Re: Jake>Athena on Sat Nov 28, 2009 8:09 am

I haven't decided where to move characters yet, but...

I made a tier split between Castor & Horace, because I never felt a lot of characters in Upper Mid were actually Upper Mid material.

Jake may end up rising, because there are too many characters with traits similar to Athena in Mid tier to simply drop Athena alone.

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8 Re: Jake>Athena on Sat Nov 28, 2009 8:17 am

Peg Athena seems like a huge waste of time to me. You're not swimming in Ridersbanes, there's are plenty of C-Lances to use it as well, and Caeda's Wing Spear shenanigans are unequivocally better anyway. And what she does without Ridersbane is very underwhelming.

As mediocre as she is as a Myrmidon, you have the option to give her Killing Edges (perhaps lightly forged), which at least gives her 50/50 on something that she doubles and 4HKO's. There's not a ton of people who have C-Swords and also give a shit about that weapon.

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9 Re: Jake>Athena on Sat Nov 28, 2009 8:19 am

And E lances is pretty awful compared to C swords.

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10 Re: Jake>Athena on Sat Nov 28, 2009 8:32 am

I'm assuming with Jake's jump we'll see Beck go up with him (probably the tier gap shenanigans).

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11 Re: Jake>Athena on Sat Nov 28, 2009 8:33 am

ChaosNinji wrote:And E lances is pretty awful compared to C swords.

E lances and no speed is even worse.

I know I was the one who hyped the offense, but she WAS comparing to Ogma offensively...But, we can see where he is now.

Perhaps mid for no earlygame utility, though still little training in comparison to teh rest of the team to at least become usable?

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12 Re: Jake>Athena on Sat Nov 28, 2009 8:34 am

I want to try and make it clear, for about the 10th time: Use whatever class setup works best in comparison to the other character, regardless of what was assumed in the past.

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13 Re: Jake>Athena on Sat Nov 28, 2009 9:09 am

Double posting, but the most likely position is Jake > Beck > Athena and remaining in Mid Tier based on IRC discussion with IOS. If anyone disagrees with this, please speak now, otherwise I plan on making this change.

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14 Re: Jake>Athena on Sat Nov 28, 2009 1:10 pm

Ok I'm using a cell phone so consider this both a reply and a test. Question is where is Horace going within this mess?

Edit: Nvm

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15 Re: Jake>Athena on Sat Nov 28, 2009 7:49 pm

ou're not swimming in Ridersbanes

They're buyable in C14.

The same chapter you get the Silver Card.

I trust it's not hard to see what I'm driving at.

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16 Re: Jake>Athena on Sat Nov 28, 2009 9:30 pm

sPortsman wrote:I trust it's not hard to see what I'm driving at.
No, I don't see what you are driving at, unless the point was that the ones with low opportunity cost come significantly after Athena would like to have them to help game completion, in which case I follow.

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17 Re: Jake>Athena on Sun Nov 29, 2009 8:53 am

sPortsman wrote:
ou're not swimming in Ridersbanes

They're buyable in C14.

The same chapter you get the Silver Card.

I trust it's not hard to see what I'm driving at.

8 chapters of mediocre performance before she reaches the equilibrium level, thank you for the measurement.

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