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1 canas on Thu Nov 26, 2009 2:28 pm

Lucius and Canas join at effectively the same time as there's no way Lucius will be doing anything in Ch 17. First Ring is at the start of 19, 2 chaps later, so let's put them both at L11.

Canas's biggest problem has always been his Spd, however, it's also been noted that an early promotion fixes this. But then other units want the same, right? Indeed. There is an opportunity cost associated with early promo for Canas. Fortunately, it's none too difficult to determine what that cost is. Lucius gets +3 Hp/+3 Def in promo gains, while Canas gets +4 Hp/+2 Def/+8 Avo. Both gain some extra durability, with Canas gaining more if anything, and both gain staves, however only Canas gains that big boost in offense, so the opportunity cost shaves away the extra durability/staves, leaving the AS boost as the net benefit.

"but C staves"

The main benefit of that is using Physic sooner, but that depends on how many of those damn expensive Physics you can afford to buy in the secret shop. If you can buy a lot of them, then this may be a good point. If you can only buy a handful, which seems more likely to me, then you'll have units using them anyways (Pent/Serra/Priscilla) with little to no surplus left over.

With that in mind, let's just give Canas that net benefit of +4 AS from early promotion, and see how he stacks up.

Lucius 11/0: 15.8 Atk, 13.2 Spd----22.4 Hp, 1.8 Def, 30 Avo
Canas 11/0: 18.4 Atk, 12 Spd----23.1 Hp, 5.8 Def, 31.8 Avo

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2 Re: canas on Thu Nov 26, 2009 3:19 pm

Mekkah

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By 11/0 do you mean 11/1?

And Lucius is currently a mile and a half above Canas. Do you want them below or above the characters that seperate them currently?

-High-
Oswin
Hector
Erk
Eliwood
Lucius
Guy

-UpMid-
Pent
Harken
Geitz
Florina
Canas
Dart
Hawkeye

vs Pent, Harken, Geitz, it's about comparing them when they're all there, and then determining +/- utility (I think most people will agree Lucius and Canas are in the +). For Florina, it's mostly about flying utility, as she likely loses straight up combat, though I don't think anyone's looked into early promo Florina yet (lolThany).

If you can buy a lot of them, then this may be a good point. If you can only buy a handful, which seems more likely to me, then you'll have units using them anyways (Pent/Serra/Priscilla) with little to no surplus left over

They're 1875G a piece of 15 uses. Less than a fifth of the sell worth of Lyn's White Gem, or Kinship's Bond's 10k. I think it can be safely assumed that Lucius can use Physic whenever that would be handy. Usually, Mend will suffice.

Pent/Serra/Priscilla usually get full credit for being able to use high level staves. It's part of why they're so high to begin with. Lucius must be held to the same standard. You can say that "others can do it" like about almost anything, as you very well know.

Also, Guiding Ring is the most desired early-promo item. Every healer wants to be able to attack, and every magician wants to be able to heal. I don't think slicing off most of Canas' promo bonuses is enough to cover for that opportunity cost.

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3 Re: canas on Thu Nov 26, 2009 3:38 pm

By 11/0 do you mean 11/1?

No, just 11/0 with +4 AS for Canas, although 11/1 stats should be a fairly similar comparison.

And Lucius is currently a mile and a half above Canas. Do you want them below or above the characters that seperate them currently?

Either way, though considering Erk's position aswell, logically Canas would be moving up rather than Lucius moving down.

Pent/Serra/Priscilla usually get full credit for being able to use high level staves. It's part of why they're so high to begin with. Lucius must be held to the same standard. You can say that "others can do it" like about almost anything, as you very well know.

By the time the other high level staves are seriously relevant (mainly just Barrier/Restore), Lucius would have B or even A in Staves regardless. The only part of his staff rank which is relevant to early promo is getting to use Physic a bit sooner.

High level staves in general would be relevant to a Lucius vs Canas argument, sure, but Canas has Luna/Nosferatu to compensate to some extent.

They're 1875G a piece of 15 uses. Less than a fifth of the sell worth of Lyn's White Gem, or Kinship's Bond's 10k. I think it can be safely assumed that Lucius can use Physic whenever that would be handy. Usually, Mend will suffice.

I don't know if I would assume a White Gem from LHM. Can you get a White Gem if you use the two stat boosters but not the Knight Crest?

Kinship's Bond is a good point, I forgot Physic is buyable there aswell after you've gotten some more moneyz. Though in this case you're also acquiring the Physics later in the first place, so that takes some away from the window of time where early promo would give Lucius additional Physic access.

Also, Guiding Ring is the most desired early-promo item. Every healer wants to be able to attack, and every magician wants to be able to heal. I don't think slicing off most of Canas' promo bonuses is enough to cover for that opportunity cost.

I wouldn't consider the fact that more units can use it to increase the opportunity cost. Canas not using it doesn't suddenly mean that all 4 of the other casters will be able to promote with it. Rather, only one unit gets to use it regardless of how many want to. Thus, the opportunity cost would simply be equal to the benefit for Canas - the benefit for the second best option.

One could argue that the healers benefit more than Erk or Lucius does, and that would hurt Canas's case, but it's pretty subjective so I don't feel like going into it. Someone else can consider it if they want.

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4 Re: canas on Thu Nov 26, 2009 3:57 pm

Mekkah

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No, just 11/0 with +4 AS for Canas, although 11/1 stats should be a fairly similar comparison.

Well, 11/0 with +4 AS is simply never happening in the game...the main reason I'm saying 11/1 rather than 11/0 is because of their combat EXP gain. If you promote them early, it slows down significantly. 5 EXP per heal only makes up for it to a small extent.

Either way, though considering Erk's position aswell, logically Canas would be moving up rather than Lucius moving down.

I would agree.

By the time the other high level staves are seriously relevant (mainly just Barrier/Restore), Lucius would have B or even A in Staves regardless. The only part of his staff rank which is relevant to early promo is getting to use Physic a bit sooner.

cba responding to this now

High level staves in general would be relevant to a Lucius vs Canas argument, sure, but Canas has Luna/Nosferatu to compensate to some extent.

Small extent indeed. Luna is a-ok for high-res bosses and valks, and Nosferatu...well, that only has 20 uses total ever, and it has issues I'm sure you're aware of.

I don't know if I would assume a White Gem from LHM. Can you get a White Gem if you use the two stat boosters but not the Knight Crest?

Yes. Either you use Knight Crest, or you use both stat boosters.

Kinship's Bond is a good point, I forgot Physic is buyable there aswell after you've gotten some more moneyz. Though in this case you're also acquiring the Physics later in the first place, so that takes some away from the window of time where early promo would give Lucius additional Physic access.

Well, it takes 50 Weapon EXP to get from C to B regardless, aka 16 Mends, or 25 Heals. He can only reasonably assume to promote at the start of the Dread Isle, so he has to get in all this in 19, 19x, and 20. I guess if he focuses on Mending it's possible.

The gap between the first and the second Physic Secret Shop is less than two chapters (end of Dragon's Gate 'till some point in Kinship's Bond), so it makes little difference.

I wouldn't consider the fact that more units can use it to increase the opportunity cost. Canas not using it doesn't suddenly mean that all 4 of the other casters will be able to promote with it. Rather, only one unit gets to use it regardless of how many want to. Thus, the opportunity cost would simply be equal to the benefit for Canas - the benefit for the second best option.

It doesn't increase it by as much as the first competitor for it, but it still matters. For example, if you assume your logic, Canas would have a free ride to the first Ring if Lucius isn't in play...but he doesn't, because the next best options are there.

One could argue that the healers benefit more than Erk or Lucius does, and that would hurt Canas's case, but it's pretty subjective so I don't feel like going into it. Someone else can consider it if they want.

Yeah, I don't feel like talking about this either, it's been gone over so much already.

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5 Re: canas on Thu Nov 26, 2009 4:46 pm

Well, 11/0 with +4 AS is simply never happening in the game...the main reason I'm saying 11/1 rather than 11/0 is because of their combat EXP gain. If you promote them early, it slows down significantly. 5 EXP per heal only makes up for it to a small extent.

5 EXP per heal can make up for it after a few more chapters. Around 15/0 unpromoted units are also getting crap all from combat Exp, only a few more points than the promoted guys. I agree though, promoting as early as 11 will slow them down to an extent. Getting extra levels just helps Canas more than Lucius anyways though. Lucius's Spd growth is only 5% higher, then he just has some Mag growth which barely matters vs Canas's better growths in Hp and Def.

Small extent indeed. Luna is a-ok for high-res bosses and valks, and Nosferatu...well, that only has 20 uses total ever, and it has issues I'm sure you're aware of.

What, getting doubled? It depends on the enemy type. Mercs might double him, for example, but something like Steel Lance Wyverns aren't going to (iirc they never reach 10 AS and 11/1 Canas + Nosferatu is 6 AS).

Luckily things like Mercs still don't have enough Atk to bother him much. Ch 24 Mercs have only 18 Atk. Comparing against a 11/8 Canas, they do about 17 damage average on a double against his ~32 Hp, but he has 24-25 Atk with Nosferatu, easily reclaiming all of that damage.

And then Nosferatu can be useful for pure self-healing on player phase, entirely aside from enemy phase tanking. One of the two disadvantages of having less durability is needing more healing, after all. With Nosferatu Canas eliminates that to some extent.

As for Luna, it's worth noting that the chapter where Lucius's higher staff rank is most relevant (CoD) is also the chap where Luna's offense boost vs magic is most relevant. It also gives Canas a pseudo-killer option to use against stuff in general.

It doesn't increase it by as much as the first competitor for it, but it still matters. For example, if you assume your logic, Canas would have a free ride to the first Ring if Lucius isn't in play...but he doesn't, because the next best options are there.

I agree. I don't see how the example goes against my logic though. If Lucius isn't in play but Erk is, then Erk constitutes the second best option, and the opportunity cost for Canas is still benefit for Canas - benefit for Erk.

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6 Re: canas on Thu Nov 26, 2009 4:53 pm

CAT5 wrote:I agree. I don't see how the example goes against my logic though. If Lucius isn't in play but Erk is, then Erk constitutes the second best option, and the opportunity cost for Canas is still benefit for Canas - benefit for Erk.
No, the opportunity cost is only the benefit for Erk. The economic profit is benefit for Canas - benefit for Erk.

You guys need to get these terms right and stop interchanging them incorrectly. Nothing is ever free; costs can never be negative.

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7 Re: canas on Thu Nov 26, 2009 5:25 pm

Yeah, you're right. I'm sure everyone gets the point though.

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8 Re: canas on Thu Nov 26, 2009 5:26 pm

For reference, opportunity cost is the value of the next best option that you could of chosen instead of the choice that you made. I'm getting a bit tired of all the economics terms as well. I get enough microeconomics 4:00-5:20 every Monday and Wednesday.

EDIT: Here's a question from my midterm that has to do with opportunity cost:

8) Suppose there are three alternatives to attending a social event: read a novel (you value this at $5), go to work (you could earn $7), or watch videos with some friends (you value this at $10). The opportunity cost of attending the social event is

A) zero B) $7 C) $10 D) $22 E) $5

The answer is C, because that is the value of the next best alternative.

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9 Re: canas on Thu Nov 26, 2009 5:43 pm

IOS wrote:For reference, opportunity cost is the value of the next best option that you could of chosen instead of the choice that you made. I'm getting a bit tired of all the economics terms as well. I get enough microeconomics 4:00-5:20 every Monday and Wednesday.

EDIT: Here's a question from my midterm that has to do with opportunity cost:

Cool Suppose there are three alternatives to attending a social event: read a novel (you value this at $5), go to work (you could earn $7), or watch videos with some friends (you value this at $10). The opportunity cost of attending the social event is

A) zero B) $7 C) $10 D) $22 E) $5

The answer is C, because that is the value of the next best alternative.


I still like my doritos, caramilk, junior mints example where doritos was 8 utils, caramilk 5, and junior mints 4.

Economic profit for choosing doritos = 3 utils.
Profit = 8
Opportunity cost = 5 (not 9)


Also the cause of certain people using the term "doritos" to signify the best user of a given resource. Although that could be largely due to Interceptor quoting part of the post in his sig and for a while saying "doritosbest user" and stuff like that.




I missed this.

Mekkah wrote:
I wouldn't consider the fact that more units can use it to increase the opportunity cost. Canas not using it doesn't suddenly mean that all 4 of the other casters will be able to promote with it. Rather, only one unit gets to use it regardless of how many want to. Thus, the opportunity cost would simply be equal to the benefit for Canas - the benefit for the second best option.

It doesn't increase it by as much as the first competitor for it, but it still matters. For example, if you assume your logic, Canas would have a free ride to the first Ring if Lucius isn't in play...but he doesn't, because the next best options are there.

That is not where his logic leads. His logic isn't:
The opportunity cost is Lucius' benefit.

Nope, his logic is:
The opportunity cost is the benefit of the best alternative forgone (whatever it is).

Basically, if Canas is 8, Lucius is 5, and SOD is 4 (SOD = Some Other Dude) then at first appearance the opportunity cost is 5. Suggest that Lucius isn't in play and his "logic" does not create a 0 opportunity cost. It creates an opportunity cost of 4, which you may notice is less than the original opportunity cost we calculated. As a result, if you want to suggest that the best competition is sometimes not in play, that results in an opportunity cost averaged out over multiple playthroughs that is less than 5, not greater than 5. Assuming you have a fair number of units that can get a 4 but only one that gets a 5, your end result for opportunity cost will likely end up somewhere around 4.3 or something. It depends how often Lucius is in play. It could be 4.7 or something. Point is, it is less than 5.

In other words, after correcting things like incorrect usage of the word opportunity cost and making his ending line:
Thus, the economic profit would simply be equal to the benefit for Canas - the benefit for the second best option.

We end up back at the first sentence quoted in this post:
I wouldn't consider the fact that more units can use it to increase the opportunity cost.

Like I said, turns out more units decrease the opportunity cost. Well, that's not entirely true, since if Lucius is the only other option then when Lucius isn't in play the opportunity cost would be 0 and it averages to like 2 or 3 or something over time. So they do increase the cost, but they just get it closer to where the cost would be if Lucius is always played, not higher than that (in fact it never quite reaches that high).

The main thing I want to say is that this was extending someone's logic to where it does not lead. I suppose it was pointed out, but still.

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10 Re: canas on Sat Dec 12, 2009 1:41 pm

Couple things I just wanna point out on both sides.

-Canas does also get that Con boost, so it's a technical extra speed point there. Certainly helps with Nosferatu.

-Lucius DOES have that Raven support, for a sexy +3 Def, 7 avoid, extra hit and 7 more crit. It's not big, but that +3 Def is a bit too tasty to ignore like that. Canas support-wise is up shit creek without a paddle.

Just wishing to point out the minor details, but I can agree with Canas moving up. Canas I'm using in pirate ship, I notice he can double weighed down noobs like steel archers and other DMs, so it's not like his speed is absolutely horrendous, just not consistant. The promotion would make it so.

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