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Sara>Homeros

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1 Sara>Homeros on Tue Nov 24, 2009 10:51 am

So, first off, I'm going to say that this matchup basically comes down to how much you respect staff utility. The two have comparable player phase offense, and Homeros has all of 3 chapters extra availibility, but Sara has A staves post-promo and Homeros has D, compared to Homeros being able to occasioanlly have an enemy phase if there aren't too many enemies.

So, the comparison. This is taken in like mid-chapter 18, since Sara levels like a truck.

Homeros 10/4 (alternatively just level ~16-17, but sage promo bonuses are sexy)

29 hp, 14 mag, 15 skl, 20 spd, 7 def, 16 luk

Support from Nanna, no combat skills

Sara 10/1

15 hp, 19 mag, 19 skl, 16 spd, 3 def, 11 luk

Support from Leaf, Prayer, Wrath. Basically everything OHKOs Sara so Prayer functionally means 33% chance to negate any enemy attack (or possibly all enemy attacks in the combat if somehow something manages to double her).

Enemy AS sucks in this game (for instance, the mounted enemies in C23 have 11-12 AS, meaning she's double some of them with wind even if she didn't level up at all in the meantime) so Sara has superior player phase offense to Homeros. In magic-heavy areas (parts of chapters 22, 23, 24, 24x, and final), she's ridiculously tanky (like 4RKOed by dark mages without levelling up at all, and like 5RKOed by the gelpritter), and can pull a wrath strategy to have superior enemy phase offense.

So, Homeros has an offense advantage against physical enemies on the enemy phase. This is a rather significant chunk of the combat, but let's see how big it is. Lategame enemies (like C16 onwards) tend to have 20-25 mt. That means the weaker enemies 3RKO him and the stronger ones 2RKO him (his hp and def do continue to increase but it takes like 13 or 14 more levelups to pull himself up to the next RKO, by which point we have 30-mt berserkers running around).

So, against weak enemies, Homeros can face two on the enemy phase. Against strong ones, he can face one. The important fact here is that when enemies come in swarms, Homeros quite simply does not have an enemy phase. In a chapter like 23, Homeros can't do anything at all on the enemy phase because the physical enemies bunch together and can't be picked off 1-2 at a time. He can still have an enemy phase against the dark mages running around, but Sara is just better than him at that.

On top of all this, Sara has A rank staves after promotion. Homeros has D. To reinforce this distinction, here's the more important staves that fall between D and A: Warp, Rescue, Rewarp, Sleep, Silence, Berserk, Restore, Reblow, and M Up. I don't think anything more needs to be said about this.

So basically Homeros has a minor availibility lead and an existing enemy phase against some enemy formations in some chapters, vs Sara having superior player phase offense and A rank staves. I think Sara wins that.

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2 Re: Sara>Homeros on Tue Nov 24, 2009 11:25 am

Mekkah

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Yeah, from discussing this on IRC I pretty much agree. Supports don't help either's case any further. The only other factors are that Homeros fatigues only once every 2-4 maps depending on how you spread his use, whereas Sara is nearly or completely exhausted after every fresh map, so this increases Homeros' availability advantage or Sara's cost in gold/S-drinks.

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3 Re: Sara>Homeros on Tue Nov 24, 2009 11:44 am

I see no mention of Resire for Homeros.

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4 Re: Sara>Homeros on Tue Nov 24, 2009 11:54 am

ThunderMan wrote:I see no mention of Resire for Homeros.

That's because I didn't notice it. I also failed to check their PCC; Sara has 0 and Homeros has 5. Sara doesn't particular mind because she has the power to just out and out 2HKO things, but this brings Homeros up to speed despite his lower magic.

That...would tend to increase his durability. Weighs 12, so he's no longer doubling, meaning he misses the ORKO on basically everything. Net 111 accuracy at the level I posted stats for is pretty solid when there's no terrain or Cyas involved; enemies tend to have around 20 avoid when there's normal amounts of leadership.

Still, using Resire just turns him into a 60-use tank that can't kill anything and has to compete with Linoan for his tankiness. When your entire team can ORKO on the player phase, weakening things on the enemy phase doesn't really accomplish much.

I'm really not seeing resire make a difference.

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5 Re: Sara>Homeros on Tue Nov 24, 2009 12:05 pm

Weighs 12, so he's no longer doubling, meaning he misses the ORKO on basically everything.
Incorrect. The game still has plenty of Armors and units with 4 or less AS as well as the Heim scroll, M up and pure water boosting his MAG enough to OHKO physical enemies (Asvel with maxed SPD and Elfire + Ambush managed to OHKO enemies before they could attack him).

As Mekkah already said, Sara's low HP often results in her getting fatigue and dependent on S drinks if she wants to see more use. Staves also have different fatigue costs (A rank = 5, B rank = 4, C rank = 3 and so on) and because of this you'll often end up with the choice of either having her use lower cost staves (which Homeros can use as well) so she can participate in the next chapter or make use of staves as much as possible if fatigue is inevitable.

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6 Re: Sara>Homeros on Tue Nov 24, 2009 12:15 pm

Mekkah

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Resire also has one other person pretty desperate for it to survive (Linoan), so if she's already play it's a competition rather than a net addition. It is still a good tome for Homeros, I forgot it was this heavy though.

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7 Re: Sara>Homeros on Tue Nov 24, 2009 12:24 pm

Mekkah wrote:Resire also has one other person pretty desperate for it to survive (Linoan), so if she's already play it's a competition rather than a net addition. It is still a good tome for Homeros, I forgot it was this heavy though.
True, however...

Her base durability makes it possible for her to be OHKOd.
9 base AS and losing 12 SPD with Resire, doubled by 4 AS enemies and never doubling while unpromoted. For offense she'd prefer the Wind tome.

She's better off just spamming Physics to level up and have B rank staves by promotion.

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8 Re: Sara>Homeros on Tue Nov 24, 2009 12:48 pm

I don't like Resire on Linoan for that very reason. She has a whopping 16 HP Base and 0 Def with a 50% and 10% growth in both respectfully. Pretty much anything can outright ORKO her, and even at 20/1 she only has 24.5 HP and 4.7 Def. Anything with 30 Attack is going to ORKO her, which is pretty common considering she can't promote until Chapter 21. Homeros is really the only effective user of Resire for that very reason.

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9 Re: Sara>Homeros on Tue Nov 24, 2009 12:52 pm

I did a quick check, and ORKOing continues to be feasible through chapter 21 or so, not counting the C21 wyverns. It would be feasible in 22 except Cyas makes accuracy an issue.

Presuming a promotion by C16 (needs 5 levels, 14 is an issue because of ballistae and enemies coming in swarms, he'll be fatigued in one of 14x/15/16 so 5 levels in 2 chapters with elite and underlevelledness), that's 5 chapters where resire is viable, and 19 shouldn't really count because you basically don't fight in it. So 4 chapters.

Sara is promoting by the middle of 18 (needs 7 levels with elite and underlevelledness, and if the enemy formation is too strong, she can just healbot). C+ staves are relevant in 19 (warp/rescue), 21 (warpskipping, restore), 21x (rescue/maybe warp; the rest is done by Tina), 22 (warp, restore, sleep for Reinhardt), 23 (sleep/silence, restore, maybe rescue for Cyas), 24 (so many I can't even count), 24x (rescue, restore, warp, kia), and final (warp, M up, silence/sleep, kia).

Even if Sara is fatigued for half of these, that's still 4 chapters. In each of those chapters, staves either trivialize the chapter or make it doable at all. Resire is not nearly that good.

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10 Re: Sara>Homeros on Tue Nov 24, 2009 1:10 pm

Sara promoting in C18? Shouldn't that be in C20 considering how there's only 10 Knight proofs by that point and the next one doesn't come until AFTER you beat C19?

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11 Re: Sara>Homeros on Tue Nov 24, 2009 1:16 pm

10 knight proofs is plenty, especially when you toss in prepromos and utility units who don't need promotion (Lara, Leaf, Saphy, sort of Karin). This game is not short on proofs. Not giving a unit promotion when they need it is just sandbagging them.

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12 Re: Sara>Homeros on Tue Nov 24, 2009 1:33 pm

Fin
Othin
Halvan
Tania
Machua
Brighton
Fergus
Karin
Asvel
Nanna
Hicks
Shiva
Carrion
Mareeta
Salem
Trewd
Homeros

Characters that can promote by the time Sara shows up, didn't include some of them because they're quite low on the list (Marty and for example) or have no business using a Knight Proof by then.

Because of Fatigue we'll be cycling through more than 10 units and it's possible that you'll only have 1 Knight proof left going to someone like Salem or Homeros before Sara shows up.

Also, you only counted Resire for until C19...

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13 Re: Sara>Homeros on Tue Nov 24, 2009 1:36 pm

You don't use every single good unit in other games, why would you use every single good unit in FE5?

9 units + Leaf + prepromos + any number of utility units + maybe Linoan is way more than enough to beat the game easily and efficiently, even with fatigue. Fatigue knocks out maybe 3 units if you're really unlucky, usually 1-2. It really isn't a problem, and I maintain that denying people knight's proofs is sandbagging.

EDIT: Actually, I counted resire for chapters 17, 18, 20, and 21. Chapters 19 and 21x aren't combat chapters, and by 22, resire stops working.

EDIT2: Oh, I see what you mean. If you promote in the middle of 16, then you can use resire for the latter half. So Homeros has 4.5 chapters of good resire.

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14 Re: Sara>Homeros on Tue Nov 24, 2009 1:45 pm

cheetah7071 wrote:You don't use every single good unit in other games, why would you use every single good unit in FE5?

If you're taking bad units into account as well, then that's even more demand for Knight Proof.

cheetah7071 wrote:
9 units + Leaf + prepromos + any number of utility units + maybe Linoan is way more than enough to beat the game easily and efficiently, even with fatigue. Fatigue knocks out maybe 3 units if you're really unlucky, usually 1-2. It really isn't a problem, and I maintain that denying people knight's proofs is sandbagging.
Denying a Knight Proof to someone else to give it to Sara earlier is sandbagging. I do admit that Knight proofs are sufficient but on my most of my playthroughs Sara is usually the last one to promote with the Proof obtained from C19's end. For C16A/C17B, it usually goes to someone like Salem or Homer.

cheetah7071 wrote:
EDIT: Actually, I counted resire for chapters 17, 18, 20, and 21. Chapters 19 and 21x aren't combat chapters, and by 22, resire stops working.
C23, C24, C24x, C25? Unless you're trying to solo the game with Homeros or literally using Resire on every freaking instance in the game, he'll still have uses in those chapters.

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15 Re: Sara>Homeros on Tue Nov 24, 2009 2:55 pm

ThunderMan wrote:

If you're taking bad units into account as well, then that's even more demand for Knight Proof.

My point is, just because there are X promotion items and Y worthwhile units, and Y>X, doesn't mean people outside those Y don't get promotion items.


Denying a Knight Proof to someone else to give it to Sara earlier is sandbagging. I do admit that Knight proofs are sufficient but on my most of my playthroughs Sara is usually the last one to promote with the Proof obtained from C19's end. For C16A/C17B, it usually goes to someone like Salem or Homer.

Guess what? Giving Homeros a seal denies someone else a seal. Would you look at that, better make sure Homeros uses the C19 one so we don't have to worry about that.


C23, C24, C24x, C25? Unless you're trying to solo the game with Homeros or literally using Resire on every freaking instance in the game, he'll still have uses in those chapters.

The point of resire is that he can have a worthwhile enemy phase. Without resire, his durability is too poor to face non-magical enemies in groups of any larger than one or two. However, by C23, enemies are not dying to Resire because it's too heavy and he doesn't OHKO them. In a game where pretty much every character has overkill offense compared to the enemies, failing to ORKO means you basically did nothing besides tank a hit. And if your goal is tanking, Homeros is not a very good choice, because his tanking is dependent on his own accuracy, and his opponent having low magic.

Homeros can still have a worthwhile player phase past chapter 21, but Sara has either a better one, or an equal one, depending on whether he's maxed magic by this point.

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16 Re: Sara>Homeros on Tue Nov 24, 2009 3:28 pm

Guess what? Giving Homeros a seal denies someone else a seal. Would you look at that, better make sure Homeros uses the C19 one so we don't have to worry about that.
Sara denies someone else and Homeros. Then there's also the possibility of Homeros reaching promotion level before someone else (Dark Mages in C14x, lots of EXP) while that may not be the case with Sara since she joins a few chapters later.

The point of resire is that he can have a worthwhile enemy phase. Without resire, his durability is too poor to face non-magical enemies in groups of any larger than one or two. However, by C23, enemies are not dying to Resire because it's too heavy and he doesn't OHKO them. In a game where pretty much every character has overkill offense compared to the enemies, failing to ORKO means you basically did nothing besides tank a hit. And if your goal is tanking, Homeros is not a very good choice, because his tanking is dependent on his own accuracy, and his opponent having low magic.
He can use wind against enemies that are incredibly inaccurate so he's not entirely dependent on Resire for enemy phase. As for enemies in C23 and past it, there's Dark Mages which he'll ALWAYS double with Resire since none of them will ever reach 17 SPD (Yotsmung drops SPD by 12). He can't ORKO the faster enemies of C23 and on with Resire true, but he is able to do so with other tomes thanks to his PCC. What enemies besides bosses have high enough magic to prevent Homeros from killing with Resire if he doubles? Oh and him doubling with Resire means 2 chances at regaining sufficient HP so the only thing he can't tank with Resire are just those faster enemies.

Homeros can still have a worthwhile player phase past chapter 21, but Sara has either a better one, or an equal one, depending on whether he's maxed magic by this point.

Sara's player phase is just MAG + tome's MT and possible critical on the first attack (up to 25%) and no critical on the second attack.

While Homeros has lower magic, it's not like it'll stop increasing and his 5 PCC means he's got 100% Critical on Pursuit with 20 SKL. He'll always critical on the second attack if using Wind, Thunder or Lightning so against Bosses, his player phase offense is superior.

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17 Re: Sara>Homeros on Tue Nov 24, 2009 3:43 pm

Sara denies exactly one person the chance to promote before C19 by using the C16 knight's proof. Homeros denies exactly one person the chance to promote before C19 by using the C16 knight's proof. See where I'm going with this? What you're really saying is that by using it on Sara, I wait longer to have a promoted unit than if I use Homeros. Which I already know--Sara does lose availibility after all. The fact that she loses availibility covers that already, and there's no reason to deny her something she has a right to.

He can use wind against enemies that are incredibly inaccurate so he's not entirely dependent on Resire for enemy phase. As for enemies in C23 and past it, there's Dark Mages which he'll ALWAYS double with Resire since none of them will ever reach 17 SPD (Yotsmung drops SPD by 12). He can't ORKO the faster enemies of C23 and on with Resire true, but he is able to do so with other tomes thanks to his PCC. What enemies besides bosses have high enough magic to prevent Homeros from killing with Resire if he doubles? Oh and him doubling with Resire means 2 chances at regaining sufficient HP so the only thing he can't tank with Resire are just those faster enemies.

I never denied (or at least never intended to deny, I may have chosen words poorly) that Homeros has a better enemy phase. All I ever said was that without Resire, if he is facing physical units, he can only face 1-2 before he starts having a large chance of death. So that's two situations to cover: one where he equips resire against physical enemies, and one where he faces enemy mages.

If he's facing enemy mages, his enemy phase is basically tied with Sara's. Both of them are insanely durable against magical attacks, and both are pretty much guaranteed to ORKO in return (Sara via wrath and Homeros via 5 PCC).

If he's using resire against physical enemies, then, past C22, he's failing to ORKO. The only physical units he doubles are armors, who suddenly stop appearing around then, and past C20 or so he can't OHKO. Nobody on the team needs the enemy to be weakened in order to finish them off. In other words, having the enemy phase accomplished nothing besides tanking the hit. And Homeros is not a good option to tank with because he suddenly dies if he ever misses, and he isn't ORKOing in return like significant portions of the cast are.

Sara's player phase is just MAG + tome's MT and possible critical on the first attack (up to 25%) and no critical on the second attack.

While Homeros has lower magic, it's not like it'll stop increasing and his 5 PCC means he's got 100% Critical on Pursuit with 20 SKL. He'll always critical on the second attack if using Wind, Thunder or Lightning so against Bosses, he's better.

Sara has 25 mt with wind in chapter 18, more than sufficient for a clean 2HKO. It stops being sufficient around chapter 22, which is when lightning is buyable and suddenly Sara is ORKOing again.

I'll grant Homeros is a better boss killer, but that doesn't make him a good bosskiller, and even if he were, it's a minor point, because by the time he's trained up, you have tons of good bosskillers.

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18 Re: Sara>Homeros on Tue Nov 24, 2009 4:11 pm


Sara denies exactly one person the chance to promote before C19 by using the C16 knight's proof. Homeros denies exactly one person the chance to promote before C19 by using the C16 knight's proof. See where I'm going with this? What you're really saying is that by using it on Sara, I wait longer to have a promoted unit than if I use Homeros. Which I already know--Sara does lose availibility after all. The fact that she loses availibility covers that already, and there's no reason to deny her something she has a right to.
You keep missing the point. The point is that Sara promoting in C18 like you said isn't necessarily set in stone or very likely, thus why I said she's most likely promoting in C20 with C19's end Knight Proof. Homeros on the other hand, yes like Sara he's denying someone a Knight Proof as well he's got less issues on it in terms of competition.

We get Homeros in C14 and we've got one other person approaching promotion in the coming chapters. Because of Elite and Dark Mages so he may end up level 10 before that other unit and then consider both at level 10, the other unit's promotion gains not being as beneficial for efficiency and ending up with slower EXP gain, wouldn't Homeros have a better shot at it? Say Homeros gets that Knight Proof and this unit wants it as well as Sara, by then, that unit will have reached more levels and has less issues with promotion in comparison to when Homer was the other candidate. Then there's Sara's promotion gains, her durability sees little improvement and really just gains better player offense and A rank which she'll reach anyway with use of B ranked staves and Physics in a few chapters.


I never denied (or at least never intended to deny, I may have chosen words poorly) that Homeros has a better enemy phase. All I ever said was that without Resire, if he is facing physical units, he can only face 1-2 before he starts having a large chance of death. So that's two situations to cover: one where he equips Resire against physical enemies, and one where he faces enemy mages.
And unless you're soloing with Homeros or are fighting incredibly accurate enemies, he's not gonna face too many enemies at once so damn frequently that he's dependent on Resire.

If he's using resire against physical enemies, then, past C22, he's failing to ORKO.
In which case you use Wind. If you want, tank with Resire, even if he's not ORKOing those, he's still weakening the enemy and allowing for others to kill them more easily (Leaf for example). If you must ORKO, use Wind, simple as that.


Sara has 25 mt with wind in chapter 18, more than sufficient for a clean 2HKO. It stops being sufficient around chapter 22, which is when lightning is buyable and suddenly Sara is ORKOing again.

I'll grant Homeros is a better boss killer, but that doesn't make him a good bosskiller, and even if he were, it's a minor point, because by the time he's trained up, you have tons of good bosskillers.
Basically, when both are promoted, Homeros has VERY slightly better offense. Homeros reaches promotion before Sara and thus has a small period of greater offense since Sara can't use Wind at first and Thunder and Fire would prevent her from doubling some enemies.

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19 Re: Sara>Homeros on Tue Nov 24, 2009 4:24 pm

So...why are we discussing Sara's offence? She has absolute shit for durability (Lol 15 HP and 4 Def at 10/1) and shouldn't be anywhere close to the front lines in the first place. I don't care if she has Wrath, she dies if she's breathed on, and Prayer isn't something I ever want to rely on. Sara should only be discussed for her staff utility, and nothing else.

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20 Re: Sara>Homeros on Tue Nov 24, 2009 4:26 pm

ThunderMan wrote:
You keep missing the point. The point is that Sara promoting in C18 like you said isn't necessarily set in stone or very likely, thus why I said she's most likely promoting in C20 with C19's end Knight Proof. Homeros on the other hand, yes like Sara he's denying someone a Knight Proof as well he's got less issues on it in terms of competition.

We get Homeros in C14 and we've got one other person approaching promotion in the coming chapters. Because of Elite and Dark Mages so he may end up level 10 before that other unit and then consider both at level 10, the other unit's promotion gains not being as beneficial for efficiency and ending up with slower EXP gain, wouldn't Homeros have a better shot at it? Say Homeros gets that Knight Proof and this unit wants it as well as Sara, by then, that unit will have reached more levels and has less issues with promotion in comparison to when Homer was the other candidate. Then there's Sara's promotion gains, her durability sees little improvement and really just gains better player offense and A rank which she'll reach anyway with use of B ranked staves and Physics in a few chapters.

You keep missing my point. Homeros and Sara using knight crests do exactly the same thing: promote the unit under consideration while stopping anybody else from using that knight crest. Yes, Homeros does it sooner. That's what it means to have higher availibility. That's all.


And unless you're soloing with Homeros or are fighting incredibly accurate enemies, he's not gonna face too many enemies at once so damn frequently that he's dependent on.

C22 has physical enemies come in groups of three (which is how many it takes to kill him you'll recall). C23 has a swarm of wyverns and a swarm of promoted horses, both with canto. C24's only physical enemies are heros, who double Homeros anyways if he uses Resire (they all have at least 12 AS and Homeros with Resire caps at Cool. C24x I'm not sure about because of the fog of war. Final has bosses (where he needs offense over defense anyways and really can't afford the AS hit) and a long line of berserkers who will swarm him, and most of whom double him anyways.

In which case you use Wind. If you want, tank with Resire, even if he's not ORKOing those, he's still weakening the enemy and allowing for others to kill them more easily (Leaf for example). If you must ORKO, use Wind, simple as that.

My point was simply that he can't afford to have a robust enemy phase because he isn't durable enough to do so. If he uses wind, then he's facing 1-2 physical enemies at most before he's dead, which was my whole point.


Basically, when both are promoted, Homeros has VERY slightly better offense.

Homeros fails to have a clean 2HKO against a decent number of enemies right after promotion, and I haven't found any non-boss enemies where Sarah doesn't have the clean KO (that's not to say they don't exist, just that I haven't found them; feel free to point any out).

Homeros reaches promotion before Sara and thus has a small period of greater offense since Sara can't use Wind at first and Thunder and Fire would prevent her from doubling some enemies.

Even if this were true, Sara still has staff utility. The main thrust of my first post was that Homeros has a slight defensive lead (still nothing to write home about) and a slight availibility lead (ditto), but that staff utility beats those.

So...why are we discussing Sara's offence? She has absolute shit for durability (Lol 15 HP and 4 Def at 10/1) and shouldn't be anywhere close to the front lines in the first place. I don't care if she has Wrath, she dies if she's breathed on, and Prayer isn't something I ever want to rely on. Sara should only be discussed for her staff utility, and nothing else.

Sara has a worthwhile player phase against enemies with no 1-2 range. The rest of the discussion has been me pointing out that Homeros isn't all that much better.

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21 Re: Sara>Homeros on Tue Nov 24, 2009 4:26 pm

Mekkah

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Her offense is being discussed because of player phase (1-2 range = no counters) and for against magic users.

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22 Re: Sara>Homeros on Tue Nov 24, 2009 4:32 pm

Then why is he talking about enemy phase wrath strategies in the OP?

Not that Player Phase matters much in this game anyways.

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23 Re: Sara>Homeros on Tue Nov 24, 2009 4:34 pm

IOS wrote:Then why is he talking about enemy phase wrath strategies in the OP?

Not that Player Phase matters much in this game anyways.

I'm talking about it only in the context of magical enemies. Sara can actually do rather well against e.g. the Gelpritter.

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24 Re: Sara>Homeros on Tue Nov 24, 2009 5:07 pm


You keep missing my point. Homeros and Sara using knight crests do exactly the same thing: promote the unit under consideration while stopping anybody else from using that knight crest. Yes, Homeros does it sooner. That's what it means to have higher availibility. That's all.
No. You're under the assumption that Sara will always promote at C18 and that there's absolutely no problem with that. I pointed out why she may have to wait in C20 and all you've said is that it'll never happen.

C22 has physical enemies come in groups of three (which is how many it takes to kill him you'll recall). C23 has a swarm of wyverns and a swarm of promoted horses, both with canto. C24's only physical enemies are heros, who double Homeros anyways if he uses Resire (they all have at least 12 AS and Homeros with Resire caps at Cool. C24x I'm not sure about because of the fog of war. Final has bosses (where he needs offense over defense anyways and really can't afford the AS hit) and a long line of berserkers who will swarm him, and most of whom double him anyways.
Goddamnit do you have to keep using the exact same enemies I already conceded to him not being able to ORKO with Resire? I already pointed out what he can double with Resire, those not mentioned are obviously becase he can't. Stop making me read what I've already agreed to.
My point was simply that he can't afford to have a robust enemy phase because he isn't durable enough to do so. If he uses wind, then he's facing 1-2 physical enemies at most before he's dead, which was my whole point.
My point is simply that in the event he can't ORKO with Resire, he can use Wind. I didn't say Resire makes him invincible nor did I mention him taking on the same number of enemies with Wind as he would with Resire because you've been repeating his Resire-less durability during the entire freaking thread.
Homeros fails to have a clean 2HKO against a decent number of enemies right after promotion, and I haven't found any non-boss enemies where Sarah doesn't have the clean KO (that's not to say they don't exist, just that I haven't found them; feel free to point any out).
Evidence?

After promotion, there is indeed no non-boss enemy she can't kill unless she happens to miss. IIRC, the same is true for Homeros though.
Even if this were true, Sara still has staff utility. The main thrust of my first post was that Homeros has a slight defensive lead (still nothing to write home about) and a slight availibility lead (ditto), but that staff utility beats those.
It is true. 9 AS - 5 doubles only 0 SPD enemies >_>. She needs a few level ups before Thunder stops disabling her doubling almost completely and Wind tome is D ranked while hers is E rank.

Resire on Homeros =/= Slight defensive lead when he doubles most enemies throughout the period he's able to use it. +2 DEF and some HP lead on someone and being unable to use Resire is a "Slight defensive lead".

Put simply, Homeros wins durability (huge win with Resire on most enemies), offense and availability. Sara has staff utility, very limited thanks to her HP and only has the C+ ranked staves above him.

Whether or not her limited Staff utility puts her above Homeros or not is up to Mekkah or IOS, I'm just posting to make sure this decision isn't hasty and Homeros strengths are put into consideration.

Also, about that comment about Homeros doing better against bosses because we have "many" other options, the same can be said for Sara and her staff utility.

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25 Re: Sara>Homeros on Tue Nov 24, 2009 5:34 pm

ThunderMan wrote:
No. You're under the assumption that Sara will always promote at C18 and that there's absolutely no problem with that. I pointed out why she may have to wait in C20 and all you've said is that it'll never happen.

She has a right to one of the early knight's proofs. She wants to promote in C18 (and will have the levels for it). Why won't it ever happen?

Situations in which the player has too many units to promote Sara until C20 will happen exactly as often as situations where the player has too many units to promote Homeros until C20.



Goddamnit do you have to keep using the exact same enemies I already conceded to him not being able to ORKO with Resire? I already pointed out what he can double with Resire, those not mentioned are obviously though he can't. Stop making me read what I've already agreed to.

My only point is that if he's not using resire against those enemies, he doesn't have an enemy phase worth mentioning--same as Sara. My other points are pointing out that using resire against them is basically pointless. Try to read how my points go together instead of just dismissing them because they don't prove anything all by themselves.


My point is simply that in the event he can't ORKO with Resire, he can use Wind. I didn't say Resire makes him invincible nor did I mention him taking on the same number of enemies with Wind as he would with Resire because you've been repeating his Resire-less durability during the entire freaking thread.

After C21, he has to choose between getting a ORKO and having durability that's worth a damn. In neither case does he have a good enemy phase. My entire point is that his enemy phase is bad past C21, try to keep up.


Evidence?

After promotion, there is indeed no non-boss enemy she can't kill unless she happens to miss. IIRC, the same is true for Homeros though.
I apologize, I overestimated the number of magical enemies that exist at that point in the game. Correct "a decent number" to "a few", and I concede the point that their player phase offenses are basically identical.


It is true. 9 AS - 5 doubles only 0 SPD enemies >_>. She needs a few level ups before Thunder stops disabling her doubling almost completely and Wind tome is D ranked while hers is E rank.

Sorry, I misread your post as saying that Homeros has an offensive lead over Sara for a short time after both were promoted. I'll easily grant that she has basically no offense before promotion, but she doesn't need to, because she only needs to rise three levels and playing healbot with elite is a huge wellspring of exp.

Resire on Homeros =/= Slight defensive lead when he doubles most enemies throughout the period he's able to use it. +2 DEF and some HP lead on someone and being unable to use Resire is a "Slight defensive lead".

Put simply, Homeros wins durability (huge win with Resire on most enemies), offense and availability. Sara has staff utility, very limited thanks to her HP and only has the C+ ranked staves above him.

Whether or not her limited Staff utility puts her above Homeros or not is up to Mekkah or IOS, I'm just posting to make sure this decision isn't hasty and Homeros strengths are put into consideration.

I'll grant it's a major defensive lead between Homeros' promotion (~C16) and C21. From then on, if he wants to keep his defensive lead, he needs to gimp his offense considerably--to the point that he might as well not be attacking at all, because nobody on the team needs his help to achieve a ORKO. Chapters 24, 24x and final might as well have Resire not even exist because he gets doubled if he uses it.

I'm also going to nitpick at the word "limited" before staff utility. How is it limited? She has easy access to A rank staves for the period of the game in which staves matter most. I could repeat it, but I listed out exactly why high rank staves are useful in each chapter somewhere up above. Even halving that for fatigue every chapter (which is a slight overestimate but I'm willing to grant it), staff utility matters for more than healing for nearly as many chapters as Resire matters.

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26 Re: Sara>Homeros on Tue Nov 24, 2009 5:56 pm

She has a right to one of the early knight's proofs. She wants to promote in C18 (and will have the levels for it). Why won't it ever happen?
I already explained why it may not.
Situations in which the player has too many units to promote Sara until C20 will happen exactly as often as situations where the player has too many units to promote Homeros until C20.
I already explained why this is not true.
My only point is that if he's not using resire against those enemies, he doesn't have an enemy phase worth mentioning--same as Sara. My other points are pointing out that using Resire against them is basically pointless. Try to read how my points go together instead of just dismissing them because they don't prove anything all by themselves.
You mean conceding to Homeros not doubling or OHKOing such enemies with Resire doesn't already suggest and saying that he has to use Wind which doesn't improve his durability as good as Resire doesn't already suggest that I know this and didn't say he had much better durability against those enemies? I'm not dismissing anything, I'm simply not arguing against something I don't disagree because that's fucking pointless. Stop bringing up the same points over and over again if your opponent has already conceded to them.

I'll grant it's a major defensive lead between Homeros' promotion (~C16) and C21. From then on, if he wants to keep his defensive lead, he needs to gimp his offense considerably--to the point that he might as well not be attacking at all, because nobody on the team needs his help to achieve a ORKO. Chapters 24, 24x and final might as well have Resire not even exist because he gets doubled if he uses it.
And so, a random staff user out of nowhere used the Rescue staff on my Resire vs Dark Mages point when I blinked.

As I said before, Yes I'm aware of such enemies enemies he can't double with Resire and suggested Wind and didn't say a thing about Wind use being equal durability to Resire. C23, C24 and C24x... not all enemies are those that he can't double with Resire, there's plenty of Dark Mages he can fight with Resire which he actually does better against than Sara since a Critical would kill Sara while Homer would survive a critical and counter-attack with Resire to be able to endure more incoming attacks.
I'm also going to nitpick at the word "limited" before staff utility. How is it limited?
Her HP, availability, not A rank right away and Staff fatigue cost. Already explained it and Mekkah said the same thing to nitpick her Staff utility.

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27 Re: Sara>Homeros on Tue Nov 24, 2009 6:55 pm

If you were conceding Homeros' performance from C22 onwards, you certainly didn't say it anywhere. At any rate, I'll stop mentioning it then unless someone else brings it up.

And so, a random staff user out of nowhere used the Rescue staff on my Resire vs Dark Mages point when I blinked.

When did you even mention Dark Mages?

Her HP, availability, not A rank right away and Staff fatigue cost. Already explained it and Mekkah said the same thing to nitpick her Staff utility.

Ok, I'll grant that's it's limited then, though if a character is going to have their staff utility limited to a certain part of the game, Sara certainly picked the right part to do it in.

At any rate, I think we've more or less hit equilibrium on every point besides knight proofs; We agree that Homeros greatly outperforms Sara combatwise until C21, and somewhat outperforms her past that point (taking one hit isn't great but is better than taking no hits). To counter this, Sara has staff utility and marginally better performance vs magic enemies on the enemy phase (Wrath > PCC).

To be honest, I don't really want to argue knight's proofs with you; we seem to have irreconcilable differences on the point, and I don't know how to explain it besides just repeating myself (and you've already started to do more or less the same thing). So basically unless new points emerge, I'll just let my arguments stand now.

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28 Re: Sara>Homeros on Tue Nov 24, 2009 7:23 pm

cheetah7071 wrote:
When did you even mention Dark Mages?
http://fegenesis.forummotion.com/thracia-776-f12/sarahomeros-t144.htm#1583
ThunderMan wrote:
He can use wind against enemies that are incredibly inaccurate so he's not entirely dependent on Resire for enemy phase. As for enemies in C23 and past it, there's Dark Mages which he'll ALWAYS double with Resire since none of them will ever reach 17 SPD (Yotsmung drops SPD by 12).

cheetah7071 wrote:
To counter this, Sara has staff utility and marginally better performance vs magic enemies on the enemy phase (Wrath > PCC).
See:
ThunderMan wrote:
there's plenty of Dark Mages he can fight with Resire which he actually does better against than Sara since a Critical would kill Sara while Homer would survive a critical and counter-attack with Resire to be able to endure more incoming attacks.

Yotsmung has 10 Crit. Dark Mage crit will be 10 + SKL. Crit Evade = Lck/2 so a scroll is absolutely necessary for her if you wish to avoid getting screwed by 10%- Crit rates. If he's using Wind, it's very unlikely that he'll miss... All Wrath is really doing is just saving Wind tomes late in the game.



Last edited by ThunderMan on Tue Nov 24, 2009 7:30 pm; edited 1 time in total

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29 Re: Sara>Homeros on Tue Nov 24, 2009 7:28 pm

ThunderMan wrote:

Yotsmung has 10 Crit. Dark Mage crit will be 10 + SKL. Crit Evade = Lck/2 so a scroll is absolutely necessary for her if you wish to avoid getting screwed by 10%- Crit rates.

Fair enough, though having a scroll isn't exactly uncommon on any given turn, especially when you have elite and thus level up more often. And supports also give 10 cev, so within range of Leaf Sara doesn't need a scroll.

Still, I'll grant the point. Sara's advantage against magic enemies on the enemy phase was such a minor point anyways that this won't make a real difference.

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30 Re: Sara>Homeros on Fri Dec 04, 2009 9:11 am

Well, right now they're pretty close on the tier list, only being separated by two other staff users. I think I'd find it easier to move Sara up above Homer if you can prove that Sara is the best of those particular staff users.

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31 Re: Sara>Homeros on Fri Dec 04, 2009 4:05 pm

IOS wrote:Well, right now they're pretty close on the tier list, only being separated by two other staff users. I think I'd find it easier to move Sara up above Homer if you can prove that Sara is the best of those particular staff users.

Lets weigh the advantages of each character:

Salem:
Advantages:
Dark tomes (not really an advantage, but might be useful in certain situations)
Access to wind tome, before promotion
Commensurate durability to Homer sans Rezzaih after promoting
Best join time
Supported by Sara and Pahn

Disadvantages:
Probably will require a promotion item to reach A staves to bring out his main use.
Offensively probably the worst of Sara, Linoan, and Salem, but is probably enough to kill generics with wind
Worse promotion gains than the other two
Growths in magic may need scrolls to fix

Linoan:
Instant Rezzaih use that is only shared with Homeros(after promotion which might not be right away) and possibly Sara, Asvel, and Sety (Not likely to need/use)
Average join time
Free promotion
5PCC
Mutual Dean support
Leaf support
Balanced growths
Best offensively

Disadvantages:
Dean flies and is meh indoors
Promotion is late
Bad durability

Sara:
Advantages:
Elite, Wrath, Prayer, some of the best skills
May potentially get Rezzaih rank (unlikely, but possible)
Kia staff
Offense is good even without wrath\
B staves
Can probably get A staves without promotion
Magic, speed, skill max without promotion
Leaf support

Disads:
Worst durability, b/c reliant on dodging and prayer
Late joiner->less positive utility gained

I think that due to the fact they all are the exact same in function and only small nitpicks differentiate them.

Since Sara has the Kia staff and is required for getting A rank in this game I think she should be highest (I think that was the criteria for the Serenes list), otherwise she should stay where she is at.

If the list has been changed to efficiency, then Linoan should be the highest. Durability lead of Salem is negated by Rezzaih, free promotion although late is outweighing needing one, join time loss is neglible, offense is obviously the best.

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32 Re: Sara>Homeros on Fri Dec 04, 2009 4:28 pm

I think that efficiency is a better way to judge all tier lists. Although this game's ranking system coincides with efficiency more then any other game.

Also, Linoan doesn't make good use of Resire due to being OHKO'd by a plethora of enemies. Sapping HP doesn't do a whole lot of good when you're dead.

I can Salem as the highest of all of them. Much better durability makes him somewhat more combat viable then the others (and he does fine with Wind), and ThunderMan demonstrated in his playthrough that he can reach A staves by Chapter 16 with a crest.

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33 Re: Sara>Homeros on Fri Dec 04, 2009 4:36 pm

Mekkah

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Admin
listing just pro's and con's doesn't work, since not all of them weigh equally, and you can never list all of them.

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34 Re: Sara>Homeros on Fri Dec 04, 2009 4:48 pm

IOS wrote:I think that efficiency is a better way to judge all tier lists. Although this game's ranking system coincides with efficiency more then any other game.

Also, Linoan doesn't make good use of Resire due to being OHKO'd by a plethora of enemies. Sapping HP doesn't do a whole lot of good when you're dead.

I can Salem as the highest of all of them. Much better durability makes him somewhat more combat viable then the others (and he does fine with Wind), and ThunderMan demonstrated in his playthrough that he can reach A staves by Chapter 16 with a crest.

So saving Eyval isn't an advantage? I was under the impression the rank goal was A, I guess I misunderstood.

While I can see him reach B by chapter 16 (I've done it myself BTW), the main issue is him taking the knight's proof, but it might not be much of an issue depending on your playstyle (I tend to use more characters than I probably should).

I'm not willing to give the durability win to Salem. When both exist neither are taking many hits. At most Salem is taking 1 more hit than Linoan IF she gets 1HKOed. But IF an enemy group has less than 16 attack, at base Linoan is always going to be better defensively than Salem. On slightly higher attack enemies, Salem can take one hit, then relies on dodging (bad idea) so he can't take on more than 1 enemy, he definitely isn't getting an offense win off of durability since these characters don't have any business getting attacked in the first place. I'm not sure that generic enemies are reaching 16 att for a while too. All I recall was that Linoan could survive a hit from everything except the bosses in 14X (Pahn incidently also gets 1HKoed by the boss >.<)

@above post
True, I'm not sure what i was thinking there...I was just trying to bring up some possible topics to explore...

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35 Re: Sara>Homeros on Fri Dec 04, 2009 5:36 pm

Enemies are reaching 16 attack pretty easily by that point. Enemies are well equipped, and often have weapons with 11+ might, without taking strength into account (Bandits next chapter have well over 16 attack). Not to mention she has 0 AS with Resire, and is risked being doubled. If "neither are taking many hits", then neither should really be used in combat anyways, so it comes down to Salem's better staff rank due to having more chapters to get it up there. In that case, Salem wins.

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36 Re: Sara>Homeros on Fri Dec 04, 2009 7:26 pm

Hmm...I would argue against this, but Salem can gain a sizable lead on Linoan statwise/rankwise from chapter 14 due to it forcing you to take all 10 turns, forces me to logically concede. However, I have trouble accepting just giving him a promotion in chapter 16 so he reaches A rank in staves.

Linoan is clearly better than Sara since ranks aren't put into account

Sara is still the worst of the three

I think that Sleuf needs to rise even more to at least above all three. If their only job is to be staff spammers, Sleuf is obviously the best due to comparible availibility to Sara without having to invest in a lot of resources, like using Salem. His stats even suggest this role in this game by given him enough base skill to never miss and high magic (and terrible everything else).

"neither are taking many hits"
Do you disagree with this statement?

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37 Re: Sara>Homeros on Sat Dec 05, 2009 2:27 am

Honestly I think that Homeros moving down makes a lot more sense than Sara moving up. If you're willing to buy "staff rank> durability" then Linoan and Salem can pull that same argument and rise over him too.

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38 Re: Sara>Homeros on Sat Dec 05, 2009 3:20 pm

Brighton wrote:
"neither are taking many hits"
Do you disagree with this statement?

Somewhat. That 16 attack that ORKOs Linoan, 3RKOs 10/1 Salem (25 HP/7 Def). Salem can actually survive three hits from anything with less then 20 attack, and have fun finding 32 Atk enemies while Salem is still 10/1. Salem could scroll a bit during that time, further improving his durability. Its not that his offense is terrible at all either, a 10/1 Salem has 19 Atk, and 10 AS with 5 levels with Sety. This ORKO's everything on the map in Chapter 16A except for one 31 HP/4 Def Arch Knight.

So I stand by the fact that Salem should be above all the other staff users. Homer...I don't really know where he should be. I'd say being the most effective Resire user (not risking being ORKO'd or being screwed if he misses) counts for something at least.

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