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Should Barst get his own tier?

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1 Should Barst get his own tier? on Mon Nov 23, 2009 5:39 pm

If Barst goes the Fighter-->Hero route, and promotes around Level 15, he quickly becomes one of (if not only) units in the game that can balance Offence and Defence. For example, we all know that Cord is excellent offensively. Lets compare the two offensively:

15/1 Barst: 30 Atk (Silver Axe), 18 AS
15/1 Maji: 30 Atk (Silver Axe), 19 AS

Now, there are no enemies in Chapters 11 or 12 (when they would promote) that have 13 AS, so its a tie offensively. Barst is the same offensively to the best offensive unit in the game.

Now lets look at durability:
15/1 Barst: 36 HP, 12 Def
15/1 Maji: 32 HP, 10 Def

An enemy would need 30 Atk to 2RKO Barst, which doesn't occur until Chapter 18. Needless to say, non-Mages/Mamkutes will never 2RKO him.
However, an enemy needs 26 Atk to 2RKO Maji, which actually occurs in that very chapter (The Sniper), and occurs even more commonly in the next chapter with the Cavs, the Silver Lance Armor, the Sniper, and the General. Maji is noticeably less durable then Barst.

Then lets look a bit farther in (around Chapter 16).

15/6 Barst: 31 Atk (Silver Axe), 20 AS
15/6 Maji: 30 Atk (Silver Axe), 21 AS

The only enemy that Barst can't double are the Heroes. Its also worth noting that Maji's attack is preventing him from potentially one rounding the Paladin (if they have 43 HP). They're essentially equal offensively.

Now defensively is a different story.

15/6 Barst: 39 HP, 13 Def
15/6 Maji: 35 HP, 11 Def

I'm pretty sure there's no non-boss physical enemy in the game that has 33 attack, so Barst is at least 3RKO'd. Enemies that he can take 4 or more hits from include: Horsemen, Ridersbane Wyverns, and Most Cavs with Lances.

However, Maji is 2RKO'd by enemies with 29+ attack. Because he has WTD he is 2RKO'd by Heroes and Sword Cavs (and the boss). He isn't 4RKO'd by any enemies except for the Horsemen.

Barst is still doing much better defensively then Maji. However, you'll see when this makes a huge difference in a second:

15/11 Barst: 32 Atk (Silver Axe), 22 AS
15/11 Maji: 32 Atk (Silver Axe), 24 AS

Barst is still doubling every enemy in Chapter 20, and the next two chapters so Maji's AS makes little difference. Now look at defense:

15/11 Barst: 42 HP, 14 Def
15/11 Maji: 38 HP, 12 Def

Out come the Braves, and lets look at a Paladin Brave assault:

Barst is dealt 9x2 or 10x2 damage for a 3RKO. Maji is dealt 11x2 or 12x2 damage for a 2RKO.

Thats right. Barst can survive two Brave assaults, while Maji can only survive one. This is absolutely huge.

So putting everything together, Barst is on par offensively with Maji but completely destroys him defensively. He almost always is able to survive an extra round in H5 which is incredibly important in H5. This isn't even mentioning Barsts clearly superior pre-promotion performance (Where he's doing better both offensively and defensively). I'm not even getting into his ridiculous supported avoid. I already posted why I think Barst should be up a tier on Caeda (who should currently be right above Merric) here:
http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=11699&view=findpost&p=694832

I just wanted to compare him to Maji too to show a potential tier gap between him and the characters below him.

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2 Re: Should Barst get his own tier? on Mon Nov 23, 2009 6:03 pm

And don't forget the fact that Barst > Cord in the earlygame by a rather significant margin.

Edit: durr i forget verbs all the time durr

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3 Re: Should Barst get his own tier? on Mon Nov 23, 2009 6:18 pm

I made a small mention of Barst's pre-promotion advantages, but they are pretty huge. Barst is able to 2RKO most enemies and attack at 2 range in Chapters 2-3, which Cord can't match. Then I posted how Barst is superior for the most part in Chapters 4-9 in my High Tier Topic. I think all of his advantages do indeed put him a tier above Cord.

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4 Re: Should Barst get his own tier? on Mon Nov 23, 2009 6:22 pm

IOS wrote:I made a small mention of Barst's pre-promotion advantages, but they are pretty huge.

._.;

I must have missed it.

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5 Re: Should Barst get his own tier? on Mon Nov 23, 2009 6:33 pm

Just to throw Abel in there too:

15/1 Abel: 35 HP, 22 Atk (Steel Bow), 17 AS, 10 Def

Abel is just an inferior Cord after promotion (3 more HP, but 8 less attack and 2 less Def), and I already showed how Barst>Cord by a pretty significant amount. Its an even bigger gap between Barst and Abel, plus Barst will have an avoid lead over Abel.

15/6 Abel: 38 HP, 27 Atk (+2) (Silver Bow), 21 AS, 11 Def

Hey, it pretty much is Cord. With one key difference: Abel has 44 supported avoid with Marth/Cain support, while Barst has 56. Lance users have around 40 displayed hit on him (around 32 true), and they dominate the map number wise. Those same lance users have about 62 displayed on Abel, or about 71 true. A 40 avoid difference is pretty significant...especially when it means that only about every third hit is actually hitting Barst.

Abel obviously can't take a brave offence, and continues to be essentially a Cord clone without the WTA perks as the game progresses.

I don't really think there are many characters that can compare to Barst before and after promotion. Draug starts a bit too crappy, and has doubling issues after promotion. So Barst in his own tier?

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6 Re: Should Barst get his own tier? on Mon Nov 23, 2009 9:04 pm

I always knew Barst was a badass. However:
Barst is still doubling every enemy in Chapter 20, and the next two chapters so Maji's AS makes little difference.
DracoKnights have 18-20 AS, so Barst would need a Speedwing to tie Cord's offense at that point.

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7 Re: Should Barst get his own tier? on Mon Nov 23, 2009 9:37 pm

By next two chapters, I was including Chapter 20x. So he's fine until Chapter 22, where he may run into a few doubling issues. Nothing too major.

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8 Re: Should Barst get his own tier? on Tue Nov 24, 2009 2:28 am

Mekkah

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So first we are arguing whether Cord or Barst is better...and now Barst is suddenly a tier up? It is hard to believe, but if cold numbers suggest it, then so be it.

(I've always agreed Barst is better)

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9 Re: Should Barst get his own tier? on Tue Nov 24, 2009 12:51 pm

A lot of old comparisons were pretty unfair to Barst. They ignored his great earlygame, and assumed that he went Fighter-->Beserker instead of Fighter-->Hero which sandbagged his AS. Now that we know better, I find Barst to be better enough to warrant a tier gap.

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10 Re: Should Barst get his own tier? on Tue Nov 24, 2009 2:07 pm

If DracoKnights are really that big of a problem, Barst can jump over to Warrior and just snipe away like everyone else, too.

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11 Re: Should Barst get his own tier? on Tue Nov 24, 2009 2:15 pm

Mekkah

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He wouldn't do much with his E bows, probably. Unless he gets an Iron forge.

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12 Re: Should Barst get his own tier? on Tue Nov 24, 2009 2:19 pm

If he's not doubling as a Hero, I don't think he'll be doing much better with a Silver Axe, honestly.

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13 Re: Should Barst get his own tier? on Tue Nov 24, 2009 2:27 pm

23 STR + A rank + Silver Axe vs

46 (47) HP
Lance
18 AS
12 (13) def

23 + 14 + 1 (WTA) - 12 or 13 DEF =

25 or 26 Damage.

23 STR + Iron Bow vs same enemy.

23 + 5(x3) - 12 or 13 DEF =

25 or 26 Damage.

Same damage or +1 for Bow when Dracos wield Axes. I'd stick with Hero to double the other enemies and some Dracos if he ends up with the SPD to do so.

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14 Re: Should Barst get his own tier? on Tue Nov 24, 2009 2:28 pm

...

>_>

OK, you can just ignore me now.

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15 Re: Should Barst get his own tier? on Tue Nov 24, 2009 6:21 pm

IOS wrote:A lot of old comparisons were pretty unfair to Barst. They ignored his great earlygame, and assumed that he went Fighter-->Beserker instead of Fighter-->Hero which sandbagged his AS. Now that we know better, I find Barst to be better enough to warrant a tier gap.
Since... when actually? I always assumed Fighter -> Hero.

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16 Re: Should Barst get his own tier? on Tue Nov 24, 2009 7:05 pm

I am a little uncomfortable with Barts being in his own tier, but I have no solid reasoning against it. If people aren't in disagreement, I'll make it happen.

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17 Re: Should Barst get his own tier? on Tue Nov 24, 2009 7:49 pm

In the old comparisons, I was personally guilty of assuming Fighter-->Beserker. Back in the old days, I'd always put way too much emphasis on after promotion performance, and ignored Barst's epic earlygame.

I haven't seen any objections to Barst in his own tier yet, but maybe people just haven't had a chance to look at characters that may match him more closely.

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18 Re: Should Barst get his own tier? on Wed Nov 25, 2009 3:33 pm

Barst is pretty deserving of his own tier. He can basically do anything you want him to for the right situation, and no matter what he'll end up doing a pretty good job. Hell, having eventual durability leads just as a fighter should win him points. Those supports are only a shiny gem on top of it all.

He can pirate in chapter 4, 5 and 9, he can merc for chapter 9 if he starts doubling (his starting strength is too monsterous to be stopped by E swords, and building sword rank can only help to make him stronger later, when it's more appropriate to use a sword than an axe), he can go hunter when there's lots of things flying around, or it is preferred to keep out of enemy reach. This would help him later when he's not doubling things as a hero, and can just go back to warrior to keep hitting things hard with an axe, while sniping at other things with stronger bows (like fliers, or to counter back at snipers, or to lodge a bolt into a hero's head). Of course, he can also go DM for the same reason anyone else would ever wanna go DM: The sole purpose being to dick around.

Barst really is what Ogma used to be for the DS age. Ogma used to be able to do anythng. Barst can literally do any option this game has for him well.

That's a bit too good to be considered for anything else.

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19 Re: Should Barst get his own tier? on Wed Nov 25, 2009 4:13 pm

Yeah, can't see any good counterarguments against this.

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20 Re: Should Barst get his own tier? on Wed Nov 25, 2009 6:26 pm

I think we might all be in agreement then. Barst is the only non-Zagaro/Wolf character that doesn't need to be babied, and never slows down (BTW: Even Hero Zagaro/Wolf need to be babied the first few levels). I think that alone is worthy of having his own tier.

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21 Re: Should Barst get his own tier? on Thu Nov 26, 2009 8:42 pm

A conclusion is being asked for and I'm trying to keep my SF visits minimal.

Barts in his own tier?

Y/N?

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22 Re: Should Barst get his own tier? on Thu Nov 26, 2009 8:47 pm

I vote yes.

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23 Re: Should Barst get his own tier? on Thu Nov 26, 2009 8:51 pm

Y

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24 Re: Should Barst get his own tier? on Thu Nov 26, 2009 8:54 pm

Yes (big surprise)

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25 Re: Should Barst get his own tier? on Thu Nov 26, 2009 9:30 pm

I can't find any holes in this argument, so yes.

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26 Re: Should Barst get his own tier? on Thu Nov 26, 2009 9:55 pm

Si.

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27 Re: Should Barst get his own tier? on Thu Nov 26, 2009 10:02 pm

You know, this forum software DOES support polls.

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28 Re: Should Barst get his own tier? on Thu Nov 26, 2009 10:11 pm

Actually.

<@bblader1> gimme a minute
<@bblader1> 15/1 Hero Barst: 35 HP 16 str 18 AS 12 def
<@bblader1> lvl 11 Hero Wolf still loses/ties all non HP stats which he only wins by 3
<@bblader1> And Wolf is obviously not lvl 11 already
<@bblader1> then Barst has a much higher axe rank
<@bblader1> He's had excellent earlygame utility

So yeah, I think Barst in Skittles tier is a better idea.

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29 Re: Should Barst get his own tier? on Thu Nov 26, 2009 10:16 pm

sPortsman wrote:So yeah, I think Barst in Skittles tier is a better idea.
Taste the rainbow.

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30 Re: Should Barst get his own tier? on Thu Nov 26, 2009 10:18 pm

Sure, Barst in Skittles tier sounds good to me.

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31 Re: Should Barst get his own tier? on Thu Nov 26, 2009 10:27 pm

Interceptor wrote:
sPortsman wrote:So yeah, I think Barst in Skittles tier is a better idea.
Taste the rainbow.

Personally, Apple (Green) Grape (Purple) and Blue Raspberry (Blue) are my favorite flavors, how about you, Int?

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32 Re: Should Barst get his own tier? on Thu Nov 26, 2009 10:40 pm

You know, this forum software DOES support polls.
Mostly my way of asking if people agreed.

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33 Re: Should Barst get his own tier? on Fri Nov 27, 2009 1:44 am

Why would Wolf go Hero when General is much better for him?

Also, you took the best time for barst, which is when Barst promotes and gets bonuses, while Wolf didn't. Wolf has liek 4 times Barst's growths or something really ridiculous. Sure, Wolf won't be level 11 wehn barst hits lvl 15, but then before Barst promotes Wolf is most likely winning, and even after Barst promotes it won't take long before Wolf passes him again due to lead in growths.

I don't disagree with Barst moving up into his own tier, but he's not equal to SedGAR or Wolf.

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34 Re: Should Barst get his own tier? on Fri Nov 27, 2009 2:23 am

Mekkah

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Yeah, when you said "his own tier", I assumed you did not mean "the same tier as Sedgar and Wolf".

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35 Re: Should Barst get his own tier? on Fri Nov 27, 2009 2:27 am

General may be better early, but I could see Wolf losing lategame as a General due to Barst's defense being mostly sufficient for this game's low enemy density by then (IIRC IOS demonstrated that he can take 2 rounds from Braves and he has enough Avo to reduce Brave hitrates to coinflips or worse against the lances), not to mention 2 move which becomes more significant as your group is able to advance faster later on.

Wolf's pathetic bases mean that he's not doing better than Barst for most of the time before promotion. Wolf spends most of that time getting out of a rut rather than building up a lead. First of all Barst has 4 chapters where Wolf doesn't even exist (including Ch 5 since Wolf isn't doing squat there), and then going back to Hero since it's comparing a more similar stat build rather than offense vs defense:

8 Barst: 12 Str, 10.5 Spd----28 Hp, 6.75 Def
Base Hero Wolf: 6 Str, 12 Spd----24 Hp, 7 Def

Barst should also have C Axes while Wolf is stuck with an E.

Right now General Wolf would be better since Hero Wolf isn't doubling jack anyways (except Armors which he does crap all damage against with his lulzy 6 str), but Hero does gain an edge in offense as soon as it starts doubling (happens in 2 levels on average). Which one is better overall proves to be quite debatable, but Hero definitely has merit.

And we can see that Barst is lollerskating all over Hero Wolf. Double Str and Steel Axe/Hand Axe/Hammer access, along with better physical durability and similar doubling capabilities (although Wolf will begin to double Cavs in a few levels, he's not doubling jack atm).

Wolf's retarded growths are also stunted by his levelling speed, which is obviously among the lowest in the party right now. Wolf's growths don't look very impressive anymore if you assume Barst gains 2 levels for every 1 that Wolf gains and factor that in. The difference will probably be less than that, ofcourse, but it's still there.

And Wolf has a pretty nice rut to dig himself out of. It'll take him 3-4 levels to start consistently doubling with the Steel Axe, while if Barst gains 6 levels in that time, then Barst is on the threshold of also consistently doubling, and still maintains a 2-3 Str lead over Wolf. By the time Wolf starts really passing Barst, it should also be promotion time.

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36 Re: Should Barst get his own tier? on Fri Nov 27, 2009 5:26 am

I don't disagree with Barst moving up into his own tier, but he's not equal to SedGAR or Wolf.
I don't really agree with it at first glance either, and it's still possible that Barts can be his own tier, but it looks like a good number find Zagaro tier acceptable for Barts.

I reason that, with stat boosters and forging, the gap between tiers becomes closer anyway.

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37 Re: Should Barst get his own tier? on Fri Nov 27, 2009 7:26 am

Also, it's usually not a valid point, but with Barst's +30 avo from supports and WTA out of Axes and sometimes the odd terrain, Barst can actually do semi reliable avo with meshes well with his solid concrete durability. And obviously he roflstomps General Wolf in offense, but GenWolf can't say he roflstomps Barst in offense.

For reference, even though Barst is bl 3RKOd by Braves, they have 26 displayed on him with his supports around, 16 if you factor in terrain. Similar thing applies to Thoron Mages, which even res tanks hate dealing with.

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38 Re: Should Barst get his own tier? on Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:12 am

I see no reason for him to not move up to the same tier as Sedgar and Wolf, so you get my vote for that.

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39 Re: Should Barst get his own tier? on Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:24 am

Horsedick.MPEG wrote:I don't disagree with Barst moving up into his own tier, but he's not equal to SedGAR or Wolf.
Well, being equal to Zagaro/Wolf is not necessarily a requirement for skittles tier, seeing as how Zag/Wolf are not even equal to each other. If the difference between Caeda and Barst is greater than the difference between Barst and Wolf, it's not inconceivable that he moves up rather than creating his own tier.

sPortsman wrote:Personally, Apple (Green) Grape (Purple) and Blue Raspberry (Blue) are my favorite flavors, how about you, Int?
They all taste the same to me after about a dozen of them, TBH.

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40 Re: Should Barst get his own tier? on Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:41 am

*Sighs* I hate to argue against Wolf, but that 30 avoid that was mentioned can be felt as soon as chapter 10. He'd basically have 44-46 avoid at that time.

Armor 5 (Silver Lance): 35 HP, 26 (27) atk, 103 hit, 4 AS, 12 def, 0 (1) res, 4 crit

Armor 7 (Silver Lance): 37 HP, 27 (28) atk, 103 hit, 4 AS, 12 def, 0 (1) res, 4 crit

Archer (Silver Bow): 32 (33) HP, 23 (24) atk, 104 hit, 10 AS, 7 def, 0 (1) res, 4 crit

Cav 5 (Silver Lance): 33 (34) HP, 26 (27) atk, 102 (103) hit, 9 (10) AS, 8 (9) def, 0 (1) res, 3 (4) crit
Cav 5 (Silver Sword): 33 (34) HP, 26 (27) atk, 102 (103) hit, 9 (10) AS, 8 (9) def, 0 (1) res, 3 (4) crit

Cav 7 (Forged Javelin): 35 HP, 25 atk, 103 hit, 10 AS, 9 def, 1 res, 4 crit

Sniper 1 (Silver Bow): 40 HP, 23 atk, 114 hit, 15 (16) AS, 8 def, 3 res, 12 crit

Wyvern 1 (Silver Lance): 37 (38) HP, 26 (27) atk, 103 hit, 14 AS, 10 def, 3 res, 4 crit


Peg 5 (Silver Lance): 33 HP, 23 (24) atk, 102 hit, 14 (15) AS, 6 def, 7 res, 3 crit
(Forged Javelin): 33 HP, 21 (22) atk, 102 hit, 14 (15) AS, 6 def, 7 res, 3 crit

Priest 5 (Heal Staff): 23 (24) HP, 10 HP Heal, 9 AS, 4 def, 7 (Cool res

I don't bring up sword users, cause the WTA would put the displayed at around 79, and an axer has no business going up against them.

Archers he reduces to a coin toss, the sniper he might not have quite as good chances, but I doubt anyone else has better odds.

Lancers? Well, the WTA is a wonderful thing in this game. First off, reduce hit by 10 for the WTA, then 9 for nuking hte rank bonus as well. This gives Barst a theoretical 63-65 avoid. Notice anything? Like perhaps he's capable of reducing them to the 30s? You know, Fuiin no Tsurugi sort of numbers? It should be also noted that his presence helps out Bord and Cord do generally similar as well (yes, even axer Bord can have noticeable avoid with these supports).

As much as gods Wolf and Zag can become, they aren't goddamn awesome throughout the entire game, and their presence doesn't make anyone else better, and their one support with Hardin probably isn't as good as these guys are for eachother.

I think the only thing stopping Barst from being the absolute top is that Zag can basically catch up to this quick, and has the form of reliable concrete defense rather than actually needing supports.

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41 Re: Should Barst get his own tier? on Fri Nov 27, 2009 1:55 pm

Mekkah

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Okay, Barst in the same tier as the invincible duo seems less weird now for me. He can stay there for now then.

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42 Re: Should Barst get his own tier? on Fri Nov 27, 2009 2:11 pm

Its not like General Wolf is invincible to everything either. If he didn't level up in Chapter 6, he'll have 30 HP, 4 Spd and 15 Def. That means that in 6x, all the pirates with at least 22 Atk (which gets bumped to 23) 2RKO him. There's two Armorslayer Mercs too, and 2 mages. Pirates/Mages/Armorslayer Mercs make up 11/17 of those enemies. Sure he could go Hero this map, but then he only has 24 HP and 7 Def, which means that even some Archers 2RKO him.

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