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Igrene, Fa, and the Sacae Factor

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1 Igrene, Fa, and the Sacae Factor on Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:05 pm

So it was being brought up in Serenes that Igrene might rise up to lower mid simply for being Klein without the win on the isles. How does this measure? Well in Ilia it's as you expect. Ballistae use to make up for crappy movement in forest, snipedown of annoying Falcoknights, but not really as noticeable as Sacae. Chapter 16, 16x and 17 is generally similar to Klein without supports. This isn't to say she doesn't have any. There is Fa. How useful is she?

Well at her start, she's getting 97 exp a kill. Basically a level a kill save 1. So that seems great, but she could still have a garbage start to not quite excuse that. Well...

She starts with the following specs. 16 HP, 2+12 Str, 2+12 Skill, 3 Speed, 7 Luck, 2+15 Def, 6+20 Res. 30 mt, 155 hit, 17 crit, 13 avoid. Yes, that avoid is garbage. Does her defense make up for it?

Mercs double, and are packing steel for generally 22 mt. 5x2 damage. Not quite a kill, but still a 2RKO. 40 HP, 9 Def, a clean 2RKO in return. They do not have the avoid to circumvent the hit, so she will have 100 displayed, and that is the most dodgy unit on the map. 9 luck, so Fa will have 8 displayed chance of offing the enemy in return. They have 3 displayed chance of criting her, but that's 15 damage to her 16 HP, so if the enemy is weak she still could avoid being killed. Risky, but she can at least survive.

Fighters ORKO her, no questions asked until she gains 4 levels (essentially 5 kills). This point, steelers can't double her. Handies wouldn't be able to ORKO her either. They have worse durability specs than the merc all around and have no crit displayed, so she then would fare better on them.

Mages with their fire have 22 mt, so Fa is just immune to them. Unfortunately, not strong enough to OHKO until 5 levels (6 kills).

Armors don't double, but still 2RKO. Fa unfortunately is 3RKOing.

Everything else is promoted badass.

She sucks for a small bit, but it's also scary just how fast she levels. Her averages.

http://www.serenesforest.net/fe6/average/fa.html

She could get 5 kills for chapter 16 and 16x. Essentially 9 levels. I don't know why we wouldn't bring her to 16x either, considering all the magic and staffs floating about. This helps Igrene, because Igrene not only supports her, but she helps reduce the stone uses Fa uses to level. She comes out with the following for chapter 17.

27 HP, 10+12 Str, 9+12 Skill, 8 Speed, 20 Luck, 4+15 Def, 10+20 Res. 42 Mt, 162 hit, 22 crit, 36 avoid.

She would still have 20 dragonstone uses, basically making her an armor with the most legendary weapon ever. At this point though, I question the use of using her heavily. Example. Most of your guys should be able to take cavs, no problem. Those bastard paladins however are another problem alltogether. High endurance, have annoying anti-doubling speed. Whoever hits them might not be able to finish them off. They generally have 49 HP, 11 Def. 31 damage, reduces them to a laughable 18 HP. 29 mt, 10x2 damage. However with their silver, they have 107 hit. Fa can reduce them to 71 displayed. Still sizeable, but it's there. 9 luck, she has 13 displayed.

Wait, but what of Igrene as I posted earlier? Well, they have a 30+3 support, which is 10, 20, 28 speed. 2 chapters, you telling me they couldn't have 10 turns together, especially when they make so nice a team? That's +1 Def, 5 acc (lol), 2 crit, 2 avoid. Not big I guess, but it does help her durability. Now the palies only do 9x2 damage, basic cavs with steel do 4 damage, so she can still take punishment. Hell, they could pull a B some point in this chapter for +1 ATK, 2 def, 5 avoid and crit, 10 hit (the hit is more for Igrene, more on that later).

That B comes in handy later. In Ilia, it helps Fa be plenty tank in 18. Basic pegs only have 32 HP and 6 Def, so she can actually OHKO them. Fa might be level 12 at this point, 5+15+2 defense, the pegs at best can only do 2 damage to her 30 HP, and can't double her 10 AS. Falcoknights would be doing 9x2 damage, but Igrene could take them out with a brave bow if it's a bit too troublesome. Still, estimated 34 damage to their 41 HP is still a nice deal.

Sacae, it's why I bring it to question. A level 12 Fa here is immune to nomads. Does this mean they'd ignore her? If so, she is not impeding Igrene's offense here by any means.

Average Nomad
HP: 35
Attack: 18
Hit: 116
Crit: 18
Attack Speed: 19
Avoid: 46
Crit Evade: 9
Defense: 7
Resistance: 5

Is your most accurate OHKO possible. Igrene just seals the deal. Igrene could Brave bow kill them at base, Fa being icing. Over the course of 4 chapters, I'll give her 3 levels.

33 HP, 17+1 Str, 18 Skill, 16 Speed, 9 Luck, 11+2 Def, 10+2 Res. With brave, she has 27+1 Mt, 122+10 hit, 9+5 crit. Defensively, 41+5 avoid, 9+10 crit evade. So, easily ORKOs with the brave bow, has 86 displayed, only taking 5 damage for a 7RKO. Can you say beastly?

Average Nomad Trooper(Bow/Sword)
HP: 43
Attack: 21/24
Hit: 119/109
Crit: 18/8
Attack Speed: 20/18
Avoid: 49
Crit Evade: 9
Defense: 12
Resistance: 7

Fa again thanks to Igrene is immune to the bow. This means he could actually move in on Fa to use his sword for 2x2 damage if he has no other option. Fa countes back to basically do 30 damage that he can't dodge. Igrene would do something similar with her brave bow. On Igrene, the bow would do 8x2 damage, a 3RKO, steel doing 11 damage, 3RKO.

By the time they walk out of either route, Fa is probably around level 20 by now, which means around 10 stone uses left. Are wyvern lords weak to the slayer effect of the stone? If so, she can basically instapwn them. Igrene with her brave bow at level 7 and A Fa would have 18+1 Str, packing a 30 mt effective bow on a wyvern lord. Their 19 Def and 58 HP? 30x2 damage, a solid ORKO. At this point though, I guess Fa's use is just instablicking wyvern lords and mamkutes. Pity we can't hammerne the stone.

Then comes Zephiel's chapter, the endgame moments. Fa's struggling to keep her stone uses at this point. However, with A Igrene, she'd be packing 30 Def with 45 HP. These punk heroes tend to use Braves and Silvers, of which they would do a grand total of 3x2 damage or tinking with their braves (20 Str with silver sword is 33 mt, brave it's only 29, strongest hitting heroes on the map). Unless your Rutger or Lance, chances are you won't even be doing noticeable damage to these punks due to not doubling, much less ORKOing them. Her last dragonstone uses can be used to scar these punks to hell. If we hammerne'd the brave bow, Igrene should be good, or she could just pack around with her new Miurge as well.

Chapter 23 and endgame, Fa probably isn't necessary anymore. Igrene can hold her own just fine thanks to her brave/miurge, and endgame is easy peasy as long as you hold a legend weapon, so Fa's not exactly necessary either.

Barth and Doug are doing this with a less accurate weapon (brave lance), and aren't quite as good in Sacae as it isn't a ranged weapon, nor is it as good in Ilia because 1 Dragonstone use>2 brave lance uses that might miss as well.

So...Igrene>Doug and Barth?

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2 Re: Igrene, Fa, and the Sacae Factor on Fri Oct 23, 2009 4:18 am

Your post is really strange.

First, you're not describing the performance of 1 unit, but 2 simultaneously. That's fine if you're comparing them, but in this case you're assuming they work alongside each other. While there is that element to consider in support chains, it doesn't really tell us how well the individual unit is doing. Barth could easily have some supporter to clean up his garbage, so him + supporter would make as effective a pair as Igrene + Fa, even though Barth might be inferior to either Igrene or Fa (or both).

Next, I only got the point of your post in the last paragraph, which is "So...Igrene>Doug and Barth?". It's like 90% of your post was describing Fa + Igrene's performance relative to no other PC, 9% of the post mentions Barth and Doug in passing, and 1% comes to a conclusion of Igrene > Doug and Barth.

When I read this,

"Barth and Doug are doing this with a less accurate weapon (brave lance), and aren't quite as good in Sacae as it isn't a ranged weapon, nor is it as good in Ilia because 1 Dragonstone use>2 brave lance uses that might miss as well."

I honestly have to wonder: What about mentioning Barth's availability advantage, or putting some attention on the fact that Igrene's locked to bows while Barth + Doug aren't, or how durability isn't mentioned at all, or the fact that comparing a dragonstone to a brave lance is misleading since Barth + Doug can equip other weapons, or Fa might've already run out when they join, etc.

So to summarize, not sure what point you're trying to make.

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3 Re: Igrene, Fa, and the Sacae Factor on Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:23 pm

Vykan12 wrote:Your post is really strange.

I get that a lot.


First, you're not describing the performance of 1 unit, but 2 simultaneously. That's fine if you're comparing them, but in this case you're assuming they work alongside each other. While there is that element to consider in support chains, it doesn't really tell us how well the individual unit is doing. Barth could easily have some supporter to clean up his garbage, so him + supporter would make as effective a pair as Igrene + Fa, even though Barth might be inferior to either Igrene or Fa (or both).

Barth's major problem is finding a supporter, all Ostians are in lower mid or lower. That is unless you find him better than that...


Next, I only got the point of your post in the last paragraph, which is "So...Igrene>Doug and Barth?". It's like 90% of your post was describing Fa + Igrene's performance relative to no other PC, 9% of the post mentions Barth and Doug in passing, and 1% comes to a conclusion of Igrene > Doug and Barth.

When I read this,

"Barth and Doug are doing this with a less accurate weapon (brave lance), and aren't quite as good in Sacae as it isn't a ranged weapon, nor is it as good in Ilia because 1 Dragonstone use>2 brave lance uses that might miss as well."

I honestly have to wonder: What about mentioning Barth's availability advantage, or putting some attention on the fact that Igrene's locked to bows while Barth + Doug aren't, or how durability isn't mentioned at all, or the fact that comparing a dragonstone to a brave lance is misleading since Barth + Doug can equip other weapons, or Fa might've already run out when they join, etc.

So to summarize, not sure what point you're trying to make.

Barth comes with the problem of needing a crest, of which is the entire reason he can't escape lower mid. Apparently the cavs can earlycrest better, so it comes at a cost for Barth. Igrene nor Fa have to deal with such costs, and do generally the same thing as what you mentioned.

Locked to bows sucks, but so does having the worst movement type without doubling. Bows also happen to rock in Sacae. Killers or brave. Then, she could just whip out silver for Ilia on those damn falcos. Barth can't even hope to cope in Sacae as well as Igrene could, and her taking a brave bow for Ilia is nowhere near as bad as Barth needing a crest and a brave weapon to be worth the time up until Bern. Sure, Barth's a hard-ass in Bern, but Igrene has brave bow and Miurge on the wyvern lords, and generally anything else.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is, do Igrene and Fa together work well enough to be a good team for Ilia/Sacae/Bern to warrent both of their uses despite being generally lower mid just like Barth?

...Ok, perhaps over Doug could be a question, due to freeness as well.

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