Re-posting from Serenes:

Echidman vs Speedy Gonzales

This game has a weird tendency of throwing hilariously under-levelled units with HM bonuses at you (Rutger, Fir, and Miledy come to mind). Gonzales is no exception.

In fact, wow. 12-13 exp/hit and 49-50 exp/kill is like he took one of your average levelled units and tossed paragon onto them. Still, Gonzales can join at best on turn 6, so I wouldn’t expect more than 2 levels.

Gonzales lv 7/0: 44 hp, 7 def, 1 res

Iron axe: 25 atk, 82.5 hit, 12 AS, 31 avo

Echidna lv --/1: 35 hp, 8 def, 7 res

Steel sword: 21 atk, 111 hit, 17 AS, 40 avo

Steel axe: 24 atk, 91 hit, 12 AS, 30 avo

On a side note, 0_0 x 30 at Gonzales’ hp. This is the first character I’ve ever seen that caps hp at 20/1. He also has C15 Percival’s base str at lv 12/0. His accuracy must really destroy him if he’s not at the top of high.

Anyway, Echidna definitely wins offence. >= AS to him and higher hit definitely wins over slightly less atk. Durability-wise, Echidna probably wins again. 9 hp vs 1 def/6 res/0-9 avo/better WTC control.

Can Echidna keep up with Gonzales’ insane levelling rate though?

The C11 enemies are lv 14-16 instead of lv 11-14, which means 7/0 Gonzo is gaining EVEN MORE than 50 exp/kill. He won’t really slow down either; once he matches their levels, he’ll still be gaining 30/kill. Echidna, on the other hand, is gaining 8 exp/hit (same for kill). You could give Gonzales something like 8 levels to her 1.

Gonzales lv 15/0: 52 hp, 9 def, 1 res, 8.5 cev

Killer axe: 31 atk, 88 hit, 34.5 crit, 16 AS, 42 avo

Gonzales lv 15/1: 56 hp, 12 def, 1 res, 8.5 cev

Killer axe: 33 atk, 98 hit, 67 crit, 18 AS, 46 avo

Echidna lv --/2: 36 hp, 8 def, 7 res, 6 cev

Killing edge: 22 atk, 121 hit, 40 crit, 18 AS, 40 avo

Killer axe: 24 atk, 106 hit, 40 crit, 16 AS, 36 avo

This is a good time to talk about Gonzales’ early promotion. The most ideal time is around lv 12-15 since he has everything he wants (hp/str/spd) except what he can’t have (lousy growths in skl/def/res), the latter of which is fulfilled through a promotion (+5 skl wtf), and of course 32.5 crit. I can’t see the opportunity cost even being that high. He may withhold Dieck from getting a little AS and axes, but axes just trade lots of hit for some atk, so it’s quite easily less beneficial than gaining 10 hit AND 30 crit.

So, assuming Gonzales gets his promotion, he beats Echidna around the board pretty badly. 9+ atk means 18 more damage per double, and a hilarious amount more when crits are involved. They have about the same AS but then Gonzales has the con to wield axes while Echidna doesn’t. And obviously 27 crit is another monstrous lead. Defensively, the hp difference has grown to 20, and now Gonzo is winning avo and def by a decent margin. That >>> res.

Everything boils down to hitrate, but I think it’s easy to show ALL of Gonzales’ leads overwhelm that single advantage.

For example, check out this 17I cav:

Cav lv 15 (steel lance, javelin): 39 hp, 24 atk, 84 hit, 23 avo, 8 AS, 10 def, 4 res, 7 cev

Offensively, Gonzales 2HKOes while Echidna 3HKOes. The odds of Echidna landing all 3 hits is about 84%, whereas Gonzales landing 2 out of 3 hits is 95.86%. In addition, Echidna’s chance to crit at least once in 3 hits is ~70%. Gonzales’ chance to crit at least once in 2 hits is 84%.

Defensively, Gonzo is 5RKOed at 16 true hit while Echidna is 3RKOed at 29 true hit. CoD for Gonzales in 5 attacks is 0.01% while it’s 15% for Echidna. That’s a factor difference of about 1500.

Things only get better for Gonzales in the future. Both characters have roughly the same level now, but he curbstomps her in the growth department. 15 hp/30 str/-10 skl/20 spd/15 luck/10 def/-10 res advantages ftw. Supports help Gonzales more as well; if Lilina’s in play, he gets more hit, and Gonzo and Echidna happen to support each other, which gives him even more hit. Granted, Echidna can get hit from her own supports, but she never had a problem there to begin with. She also has a quick support with Lalum, but I’m iffy on dancers supporting fighters (I can dig up a post on why if you want). The rest of both characters’ support lists are 1+1, so I don’t think that’ll ever matter.

I have to say, I don’t just think Gonzales > Echidna, but that they could even have a tier separation, or at least be at polar opposites of the same tier. That’s reasonably possible considering there’s a bunch of utility units in high (thieves, dancers, healers) that can be shuffled around.

Responses so far:

Thoughts?

Echidman vs Speedy Gonzales

This game has a weird tendency of throwing hilariously under-levelled units with HM bonuses at you (Rutger, Fir, and Miledy come to mind). Gonzales is no exception.

In fact, wow. 12-13 exp/hit and 49-50 exp/kill is like he took one of your average levelled units and tossed paragon onto them. Still, Gonzales can join at best on turn 6, so I wouldn’t expect more than 2 levels.

Gonzales lv 7/0: 44 hp, 7 def, 1 res

Iron axe: 25 atk, 82.5 hit, 12 AS, 31 avo

Echidna lv --/1: 35 hp, 8 def, 7 res

Steel sword: 21 atk, 111 hit, 17 AS, 40 avo

Steel axe: 24 atk, 91 hit, 12 AS, 30 avo

On a side note, 0_0 x 30 at Gonzales’ hp. This is the first character I’ve ever seen that caps hp at 20/1. He also has C15 Percival’s base str at lv 12/0. His accuracy must really destroy him if he’s not at the top of high.

Anyway, Echidna definitely wins offence. >= AS to him and higher hit definitely wins over slightly less atk. Durability-wise, Echidna probably wins again. 9 hp vs 1 def/6 res/0-9 avo/better WTC control.

Can Echidna keep up with Gonzales’ insane levelling rate though?

The C11 enemies are lv 14-16 instead of lv 11-14, which means 7/0 Gonzo is gaining EVEN MORE than 50 exp/kill. He won’t really slow down either; once he matches their levels, he’ll still be gaining 30/kill. Echidna, on the other hand, is gaining 8 exp/hit (same for kill). You could give Gonzales something like 8 levels to her 1.

Gonzales lv 15/0: 52 hp, 9 def, 1 res, 8.5 cev

Killer axe: 31 atk, 88 hit, 34.5 crit, 16 AS, 42 avo

Gonzales lv 15/1: 56 hp, 12 def, 1 res, 8.5 cev

Killer axe: 33 atk, 98 hit, 67 crit, 18 AS, 46 avo

Echidna lv --/2: 36 hp, 8 def, 7 res, 6 cev

Killing edge: 22 atk, 121 hit, 40 crit, 18 AS, 40 avo

Killer axe: 24 atk, 106 hit, 40 crit, 16 AS, 36 avo

This is a good time to talk about Gonzales’ early promotion. The most ideal time is around lv 12-15 since he has everything he wants (hp/str/spd) except what he can’t have (lousy growths in skl/def/res), the latter of which is fulfilled through a promotion (+5 skl wtf), and of course 32.5 crit. I can’t see the opportunity cost even being that high. He may withhold Dieck from getting a little AS and axes, but axes just trade lots of hit for some atk, so it’s quite easily less beneficial than gaining 10 hit AND 30 crit.

So, assuming Gonzales gets his promotion, he beats Echidna around the board pretty badly. 9+ atk means 18 more damage per double, and a hilarious amount more when crits are involved. They have about the same AS but then Gonzales has the con to wield axes while Echidna doesn’t. And obviously 27 crit is another monstrous lead. Defensively, the hp difference has grown to 20, and now Gonzo is winning avo and def by a decent margin. That >>> res.

Everything boils down to hitrate, but I think it’s easy to show ALL of Gonzales’ leads overwhelm that single advantage.

For example, check out this 17I cav:

Cav lv 15 (steel lance, javelin): 39 hp, 24 atk, 84 hit, 23 avo, 8 AS, 10 def, 4 res, 7 cev

Offensively, Gonzales 2HKOes while Echidna 3HKOes. The odds of Echidna landing all 3 hits is about 84%, whereas Gonzales landing 2 out of 3 hits is 95.86%. In addition, Echidna’s chance to crit at least once in 3 hits is ~70%. Gonzales’ chance to crit at least once in 2 hits is 84%.

Defensively, Gonzo is 5RKOed at 16 true hit while Echidna is 3RKOed at 29 true hit. CoD for Gonzales in 5 attacks is 0.01% while it’s 15% for Echidna. That’s a factor difference of about 1500.

Things only get better for Gonzales in the future. Both characters have roughly the same level now, but he curbstomps her in the growth department. 15 hp/30 str/-10 skl/20 spd/15 luck/10 def/-10 res advantages ftw. Supports help Gonzales more as well; if Lilina’s in play, he gets more hit, and Gonzo and Echidna happen to support each other, which gives him even more hit. Granted, Echidna can get hit from her own supports, but she never had a problem there to begin with. She also has a quick support with Lalum, but I’m iffy on dancers supporting fighters (I can dig up a post on why if you want). The rest of both characters’ support lists are 1+1, so I don’t think that’ll ever matter.

I have to say, I don’t just think Gonzales > Echidna, but that they could even have a tier separation, or at least be at polar opposites of the same tier. That’s reasonably possible considering there’s a bunch of utility units in high (thieves, dancers, healers) that can be shuffled around.

Responses so far:

To be fair, I don't like the idea of withholding Dieck from promotion, since that guy would definitely appreciate +2 spd and a whooping +4 def. Axes is a good trade off too since Dieck has skl in spades so the hit loss doesn't bother him, and it gives him att + hand axe option. Then there's Rutger to consider as well. Also, both of them are much more likely to hit 20/0 before Gonzo, which means if you don't promote them they'll be gaining no exp rather than some.

You get a third crest by chapter 16 though so it shouldn't change too much, mostly since it doesn't look like a 15/0 Gonzo is losing to a 20/2 or 3 Echidna, if at all, anyway (basically hit + little bit of AS vs everything else). I guess this may make Fir/Lot worse, but... w/e. I guess instead of Gonzo being a tier higher than Echidna, instead he should just be above her.

I thought Gonzo was above Echidna already.

And Echidna x Lalum is viable, just not that fast. For me they got to C in chapter 16.

Thoughts?