Daros>Ogma

So it shouldn't take a genius to figure out that Ogma wins Chapters 2 and 3. Daros gets 1~2 range which is cool, but Ogma is one of your best units offensively. I concede this.

Now lets take a gander at Chapter 4. I'll assume two levels for Ogma, and just one for Daros.

Ogma 6/0: 24 HP, 15 Atk (+1) (Steel Sword), 13 AS, 6 Def
Daros 4/0: 22 HP, 14 Atk (Iron Lance), 1 AS, 12 Def

Now you may think that Ogma has the advantage, but look again. Here's how they both fare against the enemies in this level:

Thieves: Ogma 2RKOs both, and Daros only 2RKOs the Level 1. Ogma is 3RKOd, while Daros is either 6 or 11RKO'd
Fighter: Ogma 3RKOs and Daros 4RKOs. Both are 2RKO'd (although Ogma does have an avoid advantage)
Hunter: Both 3RKO. Ogma is 3RKO'd and Daros is either 4RKO'd or 6RKO'd
Archer: Ogma 2RKOs while Daros 4RKO's. Both are 2RKO'd
Armor: Ogma 6RKOs while Daros 11RKO's. Ogma is 2RKO'd while Daros is 4RKO'd
Horseman: Ogma 4RKOs while Daros 5RKOs. Ogma is 3RKO'd while Daros is 4RKO'd or 6RKO'd
Cav (Iron Sword): Ogma 2RKOs while Daros 5RKOs. Ogma is 2RKO'd while Daros is 2-3RKO'd
Cav (Iron Lance): Ogma 3RKOs while Daros 5RKOs. Ogma is 2RKO'd while Daros is 2-3RKO'd

So Daros isn't outputting the greatest offence at the moment, but he's usually surviving at least another hit compared to Ogma. Ogma is still probably winning, but again this lead diminishes quickly

Chapter 8:

Ogma 11/0: 28 HP, 17 Atk (+3), 14 AS, 7 Def
Daros 11/0: 27 HP, 19 Atk (+1), 1 AS, 17 Def

Cav 3: Ogma 2RKOs while Daros 3RKOs. They 2RKO Ogma and 7RKO Daros (thanks to WTA)
Archers: Ogma 2RKOs while Daros 3RKOs. They 3RKO Ogma and 7RKO Daros
Armors: Ogma can pull out an Armorslayer for an ORKO while Daros 4-5RKOs. They 2RKO Ogma and 6RKO Daros
Horseman: Both 3RKO. Ogma is 3RKO'd while they either tink or 14RKO Daros

So Daros is holding his own defensively. It takes an average 4-5 more hits to take Daros down, and he actually tinks the most common enemy on the map. Aside from the Armors, he usually only takes one more round to kill stuff too. Lets just look at promotion:

Chapter 11:

15/1 Merc->Hero Ogma: 38 HP, 24 (+3) Atk, 17 AS, 10 Def
15/1 Armor->General Daros: 40 HP, 27 (+2) Atk, 5 AS, 23 Def

Cavs: Both 2RKO. They 3RKO Ogma and 5RKO Daros
Mercs: Ogma ORKOs and Daros 2RKOs. They 3RKO Ogma and 20RKO Daros
Oh, and Level 5s tink Daros. Everything else is the same.
Pegs: Both 2RKO. Ogma is 3RKO'd while they tink Daros
Sniper: Daros 2RKO'd while Ogma 3RKO's. They 3RKO Ogma and 7RKO Daros
Horseman: Both 2RKO. They 4RKO Ogma and *tink*

So now they're about on par offensively, and Daros is just miles ahead defensively, its not even funny. This just gets worse and worse, and eventually Ridersbane become buyable so Daros can continue to be on par with Ogma offensively. Meanwhile, more and more enemies will begin to tink him. It keeps going uphill for Daros, yet Ogma can't keep up when he stops doubling.

Daros might have a bit more of a slower start, but quickly catches up in a few chapters. I don't think anybody can argue Ogma>Daros after promotion, so I'll look more in depth at Chapter 4-10 if anybody argues.

I've always felt far too weight was being put on Ogma's earlygame, so I don't have any problem with it. Of course the question remains if the solution is Daros up or Ogma down.

I think that Daros after promotion is arguably one of your best units. He has 23 Def after promotion, which is the same as Wolf's at Level 12 (which would be a very generous level by Chapter 11). Wolf might have a bit of HP and Spd over Daros (to avoid getting doubled), but it hardly matters once Daros starts tinking everything.

I think something that needs to be brought up is Armor Knight movement. It's clear that they win in durability, but what about being able to get to places, especially assuming efficiency?

5 move with 1 range at first doesn't sound like a winning combination, IMO.

5 mov IS a problem because it bugs down the "average" movement of the team, who have to move an average of 5 spaces a turn instead of 6 to stay clumped together, but it's not a big enough of one to offset superior combat.

So basically if he is to lead the team and lure enemies, he's forcing the rest of the team to not do much.

I can understand him catching up after other units lure enemies, but the most I'm seeing this mean is that he won't need a heal if he ends up taking a counter.

<&Colonel_Marcus> Erm, does IOS's comparison take Silver Sword into account for early chapters?
<&Colonel_Marcus> Cuz, srsly bro

That makes a pretty big difference for his offense earlygame and one of the reasons why I didn't try touching Hardin > Oguma.

Well even if it doesn't, I don't think it really warrants a tier gap.

With a silver sword at level 12 for Pyarthi, I'm pretty sure he's capable of ORKOing pirates.

Lessee, 9+12+2=23 mt. I believe pyarthi pirates have 4-5 defense, making that 19-18x2 damage.

So 36-38 damage. I'm pretty sure that slaughters a pirate in one go.

They have anywhere from 5-6 defense, and up to 35-36 HP. He can ORKO some, but he'll 2RKO the stronger ones.

Not that this will make a huge difference. Silver Swords/Lances are buyable in Chapter 8 and then Silver Axes are in Chapter 10. There are no other Axe enemies in Chapters 8 or 10, so its a 1 Chapter advantage.

I mean like in C5, for example.

True, but we can't completely rule out Nabarl wanting it (who is currently in Upper Mid, so its possible that he'll be played). Then both Silver Swords and Lances are buyable in Chapter 8, so we're really only talking about 3 chapters of possible silver sword utility. I don't know if thats enough to warrant an advantage for Ogma, considering his mediocre post-promotion performance.

Darros is going to have B Lances by Ch 8, with his E starting in Ch 4?

Not to mention that there's just way more units who can use a Silver Lance in general and that buying one for 2200G in Ch 8 is lots of money. Ogma is one of the very few units who can use that free Ch 4 Silver Sword. Well, almost the only one. His only competition is Navarre, who is only upper mid, and also apparently likes to go Cav in which case he'll want to be building his lance rank anyways and the Silver Sword would better be left with Ogma; and then there's just Marth, who generally gets a +5-6 Mt Rapier anyways (or atleast I always give him one, seems like a pretty obviously good idea).

Your Cavs obviously won't be getting B Swords and even Navarre might not get it for a good while depending on how early you reclass to Cav.

Then you have the early KE aswell.

Then post promotion, who besides Ogma will have A Swords for Mercurius? I'm not seeing anyone except eventually Marth.

I dunno how much of an offensive advantage this gives to Ogma, but it looks like it's being quite underrated here (don't see it being accounted for at all in the comparisons).

Darros having B Lances by Chapter 8 might of been a bit of an exaggeration.

2200 isn't a lot of money at all. By that point, you have 450000 which should be plenty to buy a Silver Lance for everyone who needs it (and I can see 4 people on a standard team needing it at that point at the MOST).

Yes, the character guide says that Navarre should go Cav->Draco, but this is not a good idea. It destroys his AS, and essentially his offence. Myrm-->Swordmaster keeps his AS up with the greats, and the loss of strength doesn't outweigh this. Marth would also like offence on enemies that aren't cavs/armors so he wants the Silver Sword too. There's only one until Chapter 8, so he's taking a resource that at least two people want. Same story with the Killing Edge (which doesn't produce anything even close to reliable critical rates anyways).

Mercurius doesn't come until Chapter 18, at which point Ogma's doubling is a lost cause. A bit of extra might isn't helping this, and Marth/Nabarl/Athena will all have A Swords at this point. Difference is that the later two can double with it, meaning they make much better use of it.

I've considered Myrmidon!Navarre once more since I looked at Sniper and, even then, it isn't too bad.

I think Oguma using the C4 Silver Sword and Killing Edge shouldn't be brushed off so easily though.

Its a point in his favor, but remember that Nabarl will make better use of it with his more frequent doubling.

450000? I'm sure you meant 45000.

Indeed it's quite possible to buy multiple Silver Lances in Ch 8, it's also quite possible to buy lots of other helpful things with that money instead. For example, forging the Rapier and the Ridersbane throws away somewhere between 30-40% of that 45K all by itself. Wing Spear is also to be considered, and if taken into account probably around 50% of the cash is gone. And that's just from forging effective weapons alone, which is very far from the only other thing you can be doing with that cash. Buying a Silver Lance in Ch 8 has a pretty big opportunity cost.

Navarre also indeed exists, but not a single person is using him in their playthrough logs, probably as a result of the fact that people like to use small teams, which means there's like twice as many good units as you have room for on your team. Which doesn't leave much room for Navarre to see a significant amount of use on efficient playthroughs. As for Navarre's "more frequent doubling," it takes until L12 for Navarre to gain a whole point of Spd over Ogma.

And I like how you then tossed Athena in there aswell.

Basically, it needs to be accounted for and can't be simply written off. I'm too lazy to look at it myself atm but will likely do so tomorrow.

I wouldn't wipe Navarre from existence, but I agree that availability does hurt his opportunities to use the Silver Sword.

CAT5 wrote:450000? I'm sure you meant 45000.

Indeed it's quite possible to buy multiple Silver Lances in Ch 8, it's also quite possible to buy lots of other helpful things with that money instead. For example, forging the Rapier and the Ridersbane throws away somewhere between 30-40% of that 45K all by itself. Wing Spear is also to be considered, and if taken into account probably around 50% of the cash is gone. And that's just from forging effective weapons alone, which is very far from the only other thing you can be doing with that cash. Buying a Silver Lance in Ch 8 has a pretty big opportunity cost.

Navarre also indeed exists, but not a single person is using him in their playthrough logs, probably as a result of the fact that people like to use small teams, which means there's like twice as many good units as you have room for on your team. Which doesn't leave much room for Navarre to see a significant amount of use on efficient playthroughs. As for Navarre's "more frequent doubling," it takes until L12 for Navarre to gain a whole point of Spd over Ogma.

And I like how you then tossed Athena in there aswell.

Basically, it needs to be accounted for and can't be simply written off. I'm too lazy to look at it myself atm but will likely do so tomorrow.

Yes, 45000 gold of course

So buying Silver weapons has too big of an opportunity cost? Good, then we're not going to buy any Silver Swords for Ogma either, as they only cost 200 less. I mean, why buy weapons that can make anybody jump in performance when we can blow 30-40% of it on a weapon that only one person can use? You have to admit that its a pretty weak argument to say that he can't get a Silver because we're too busy blowing 10K on a 25 use weapon.

When have we ever assumed that we're only playing Top/High tier characters? Thats one of the first rules of tier lists, that we aren't assuming one team every playthrough. Navarre is in Upper Mid, and I don't care who's using him in which playthrough. He has a reasonable chance to be in play.

I assume the point about Marth wanting it has been conceded, as you didn't respond to it.

Yes, having access to the Silver Sword is an advantage. No, we can't assume that Ogma is always using it. Its a point in his favor, but not a significant one. Think of it like the Gant Lance in FE6. Its nice if a character can use it, but no specific character is assumed to always get it.

So buying Silver weapons has too big of an opportunity cost? Good, then we're not going to buy any Silver Swords for Ogma either, as they only cost 200 less. I mean, why buy weapons that can make anybody jump in performance when we can blow 30-40% of it on a weapon that only one person can use? You have to admit that its a pretty weak argument to say that he can't get a Silver because we're too busy blowing 10K on a 25 use weapon.

Buying Silver for Ogma? Right, because that was the original argument, buying Silver for Ogma in Ch 8 and discarding that free Ch 4 Silver as soon as you get it.

30-40% on two weapons, not one. And while Silvers give +4 Mt, those forges give much more against their effective targets and are available earlier.

+3 Mt on Ridersbane is 4200G, while a Silver Lance is 2200, and the forge gives +9 Mt vs effective targets whereas Silver gives +2 Mt vs non-effective targets as compared to the forge. +5 Mt on Rapier is approximately 9500G IIRC, but it's +15 Mt against relevant targets, while being only 2 less Mt than Silver against others, and has more uses. And again, both are available earlier than Ch 8, specifically they're available during the time period where everyone's offense is at the worst and such weapons will make the greatest difference, giving more incentive to invest in them.

And again, that's not the only other thing you could be doing with that money. The most obvious thing being that you need to buy all the basic stuff for your guys (a solid number of Heals and Steels + 1-2 range weapons). Then you may want another Hammer, Blizzard and Thunder just became buyable in this chapter for your Mages, that money could be used for forges on non-effective weapons (a +5 Mt Fire tome for someone like Shiida is only 200G more than a Silver Lance and in fact has a lower cost per use, and it's actually +10 damage since she doubles as compared to Darros only getting +4 since he never doubles), etc.

It's also worth mentioning that Navarre being in play increases the opportunity cost for Darros getting a Ch 8 Silver, since that money could've bought a Silver for either Navarre or Ogma instead, whereas if Navarre wasn't being used there'd be little to no demand for another Silver Sword.

When is Darros gonna hit B Lances anyway? Ch 10 at the earliest? I would think 11-12 more likely.

When have we ever assumed that we're only playing Top/High tier characters? Thats one of the first rules of tier lists, that we aren't assuming one team every playthrough. Navarre is in Upper Mid, and I don't care who's using him in which playthrough. He has a reasonable chance to be in play.

That's why I pointed out that there's liek twice as many good (and by that I mean atleast a tier higher than Navarre) units available as people are using on their teams. You can avoid "assuming one team every playthrough" and change it up alot and still never use Navarre.

The tier list assumes efficient play, thus it must by association assume top/high tier units favored strongly over others when considering your team. Navarre's not getting used very often. The chance isn't non-existent, but I'd hardly consider it to make a significant impact here.

I assume the point about Marth wanting it has been conceded, as you didn't respond to it.

That's why I pointed out that it's a good idea to give Marth a +5-6 Mt Rapier anyways. That only has 1-2 less Mt than Silver even against non-Cav/Armor enemies, and Silver's additional Mt is made entirely irrelevant against those enemy types. The net benefit of giving the Silver to Ogma is much higher. Not to mention it takes Marth longer to hit B Swords anyway, though I'm not sure exactly how much longer it might be.

Oh, and speaking of the "more frequent doubling" that you brought up for Navarre, it takes Marth until L11 to reach Ogma's base Spd.

Yes, having access to the Silver Sword is an advantage. No, we can't assume that Ogma is always using it. Its a point in his favor, but not a significant one. Think of it like the Gant Lance in FE6. Its nice if a character can use it, but no specific character is assumed to always get it.

The Gant Lance is a cool analogy because it's a good representation of Darros's situation. Lots of units can use early Silver Lances, just like you have multiple units able to take advantage of the Gant Lance in FE6, and thus no specific character is getting much mileage out of it.

With Ogma, he's much closer to having a monopoly on the weapon in question.

+5 Mt on Rapier is approximately 9500G

I.e, it's completely not worth it.

sPortsman wrote:

+5 Mt on Rapier is approximately 9500G

I.e, it's completely not worth it.

Well I wouldn't say it's completely not worth it. Perhaps more "impractical".

A weapon one guy can use to OHKO cavs is not nearly as good as a weapon that everybody can use to OHKO cavs for half the price. Even if it only has 8 less uses.

I'm sorry CAT5, but you're taking this argument way out of control to the point where you're being borderline completely illogical. You can spout out as many microeconomic terms as you want, its not going to change the fact that your argument is fundamentally flawed. By the time Darros has B Lances in Chapter 10, we have $60000. Darros wants a grand total of 3.6% of that. Yet we're automatically assumed that Marth is getting 15.8% of it? I can safely say that point has been exaggerated to the point of absurdity, and I think everyone else will agree.

You're only credible point is that Ogma may or may not get the Silver Sword, depending if Nabarl is in play or if we're going to blow 10K on a forge for Marth. I'm saying that isn't enough to give him an advantage over Darros. If you can prove that giving Ogma Silver Sword monopoly for four chapters suddenly makes him leaps and bounds more useful, then show that. Otherwise, Darros>Ogma still stands.

EDIT: Apparently Hunter/Knight-->General Ogma is being assumed now anyways

I'm sorry CAT5, but you're taking this argument way out of control to the point where you're being borderline completely illogical. You can spout out as many microeconomic terms as you want, its not going to change the fact that your argument is fundamentally flawed. By the time Darros has B Lances in Chapter 10, we have $60000. Darros wants a grand total of 3.6% of that. Yet we're automatically assumed that Marth is getting 15.8% of it? I can safely say that point has been exaggerated to the point of absurdity, and I think everyone else will agree.

With regards to Darros, the point is that the cash could indeed go towards Marth getting that weapon, or a lesser forge, or any other number of things for various other units. Just pointing out how much the forge costs means nothing. I'll repost this since saying "you're illogical/absurd" isn't a counter and also isn't true:

30-40% on two weapons, not one. And while Silvers give +4 Mt, those forges give much more against their effective targets and are available earlier.

+3 Mt on Ridersbane is 4200G, while a Silver Lance is 2200, and the forge gives +9 Mt vs effective targets whereas Silver gives +2 Mt vs non-effective targets as compared to the forge. +5 Mt on Rapier is approximately 9500G IIRC, but it's +15 Mt against relevant targets, while being only 2 less Mt than Silver against others, and has more uses. And again, both are available earlier than Ch 8, specifically they're available during the time period where everyone's offense is at the worst and such weapons will make the greatest difference, giving more incentive to invest in them.

And again, that's not the only other thing you could be doing with that money. The most obvious thing being that you need to buy all the basic stuff for your guys (a solid number of Heals and Steels + 1-2 range weapons). Then you may want another Hammer, Blizzard and Thunder just became buyable in this chapter for your Mages, that money could be used for forges on non-effective weapons (a +5 Mt Fire tome for someone like Shiida is only 200G more than a Silver Lance and in fact has a lower cost per use, and it's actually +10 damage since she doubles as compared to Darros only getting +4 since he never doubles), etc.

It's also worth mentioning that Navarre being in play increases the opportunity cost for Darros getting a Ch 8 Silver, since that money could've bought a Silver for either Navarre or Ogma instead, whereas if Navarre wasn't being used there'd be little to no demand for another Silver Sword.

Point being that opportunity cost for buying an early Silver Lance exists and is significant. Unless you get enough money to do all these different things as much as you want, which you obviously don't.

As for how much it benefits Ogma, again, I dunno lol, haven't actually looked at the numbers. And like you said, w/e -> General anyways. I'm just pointing out that it's there.

If I hear the words opportunity cost one more time...

I actually have no idea how to counter your post, because I can't wrap my head around your twisted logic where somehow taking 3.6% of the total cash you have to make one character go from 3RKOing to 2RKOing is "significant". And I'm taking economics courses in university. This topic isn't really getting anywhere anyways what with Ogma not even going that route anymore.

Locking. Any Darros vs. Ogma discussion should continue in the Bord topic (which has pretty much became the Hunter/Knight->General topic)