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Abel vs. Draug

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1 Abel vs. Draug on Wed Nov 18, 2009 9:05 pm

Here's what we'll do:

Abel: Cavalier -> Sniper

Draug: Fighter -> Berserker

If anyone disagrees with this, I will attempt to skewer a comparison for Hunter -> General or whatnot.

First off, C1:

Abel - 20.0 HP | 6.0 Str | 7.0 Skl | 7.0 Spd | 2.0 Luck | 7.0 Def

Iron Sword - 11 Atk
Javelin - 13 Atk, 78 Hit

Draug - 20.0 HP | 7.0 Str | 3.0 Skl | 3.0 Spd | 1.0 Luck | 11.0 Def

Iron Lance - 13 Atk
Javelin - 14 Atk, 73 Hit

Let's start with the main enemy types:
Pirate:

26 (25) HP
15 atk
6 AS
100 (99) hit
4 def
Oof. Draug on a fort solidifies his 11 Def, so he takes 4 damage per round. Meanwhile Abel w/Iron Sword will have 8 Def / 48 Avoid. In the scenario of taking 3 hits Abel has a 13% chance of death. If Draug moves off the fort he has a near-100% chance of dying in 4-5 hits. So defensively Draug can edge a victory, though Abel isn't doing wtfterrible since he is 3RKOed an the Iron Sword is an accurate option.

C2-3 should be skipped really. Pirates have 8-9 AS by C2 and C3 Fighters have 10 AS. Eep. Victory to Abel over these two chapters.

So let's view Abel gaining 3 levels while Draug gains two due to mediocre performance in C2 and C3.

Abel - 22.0 HP | 7.2 Str | 8.5 Skl | 8.5 Spd | 2.8 Luck | 7.6 Def

Iron Sword - 12 Atk
Steel Sword - 15 Atk
Javelin - 15 (C) Atk
Steel Lance - 16 Atk, 7 AS

Draug - 23.2 HP | 6.4 Str | 2.8 Skl | 10.8 Spd | 1.6 Luck | 3.6 Def

Iron Axe - 13 Ak

Draug will always lose when it comes to Abel. Abel only needs to pull out an Iron Lance and he wins Atk. Abel also has the slightly better compound durability (4 Def vs. 1 HP). So once again does it matter?

Fighter: 19-20 Atk

Both are 2RKOed here.

Cavalier: 18 Atk (20 w/Armor)

Abel can make these Cavs a 3RKO (18-8=10/22 HP) while the 20 Atk they, once again, tie.

Archer / Armor Knight: 18 Atk

Abel also makes these a 3RKO.

Horseman: 14-15 Atk

Abel takes 12-14 damage per round while Doga can take from 10-11 damage to 20-22 damage. Draug just avoids a ORKO by the skin of his teeth.

Boss

I do want to say forget it, but Abel has the sight edge w/Javelin.

Abel wins offense and defense so far for about... 3 chapters to Doga's 1 chapter.

Speed up to C5 and without looking at the stats Abel can use the Ridersbane on the Cavs at this point. Granted, Draug can now use Hand Axe midway or near the beginning of this chapter. He's still a little too slow to double much and, as for the Atk values?

Cavs: 21 Atk

Oof. 2RKOed.

AK: 24 Atk.

Damn...

Archer: 19 Atk

Well Abel can prevent being 2RKOed by these guys. Granted a Cav assault (13 damage) and an Archer duel (11 damage) 2RKOes Abel anyways.

So to put it simply Abel will still have wins that are now extended with the Ridersbane. His durability is marginally better against Archers, aside from that not much else.

Now I'm going to go chapter-by-chapter:

- C6: Not much really. There's a couple of Mages, 2 Cavs (one w/Silver), some Armor Knights, and a bunch of Thieves / Archers. Draug should be good to double Cavs w/Iron Axe, though Abel likely has the Ridersbane as a response to this.

- C6X: Granted Abel could go Myrmidion and double these guys, but sticking straight to Cavalier Draug can win offense vs. Abel. Though Def it's a different story. With Swords knocking 25% Hit, +15 for the Forts, then +11 from Spd + Luck and finally +5 from Marth minimum grants Abel a grand total of 56 Avoid. Hit rates? Hit: Iron 100-101, Steel 90-91, Hand 80-81. Do da math. As for continuing durability Abel is still iffy taking Steel Axe, though it is a bit mre innacurate. I'd say Draug wins here w/offense but Abel can at least manuever w/Avoid.

- C7: These guys aren't so hot in combat so this chapter is more for units that pack bows. Aside from that Abel will have the upper hand on the Archers and Mercenaries to the village. Abel can also prove to be worthy by blocking a fort thanks to Abel's mov.

- C8: Draug loses WTA all over the place, so his Hit rates drop a bit. Abel wins.

- C9: Slightly similair story back in C6X but NOW Abel can double all these guys. Steel Sword!Abel w/C rank does about 26 damage at worst to the Pirates. As for Avoid it is not so great in this chapter but it can help a bit with surviving. As for Draug w/Steel Axe does about 2 more damage per round, so it's not that far off. Both are about even here, though I'd likely hand the victory to Draug for the slightly higher damage output.

- C10: Draug doubles Archers and Cavaliers. Easily wins this.

- C11: Tricky, but I'd throw Abel the favor. He is likely near doubling the Cavaliers as well while being able to hit the Mercenaries is a good thing. His Mov is also a good advantage to taking on the Ballistae closer.

- C12: 25 Atk (Draug) vs. 26 Atk (Abel). Now I'd argue Abel has the slight edge in combat here over Draug.

So it's finally promo time I'd say. 15/1 Abel and Draug:

Abel - 35.1 HP | 13.6 Str | 20.0 Skl | 17.0 Spd | 5.5 Luck | 9.8 Def | 3.0 Res

Steel Bow - 23 Atk

Draug - 37.0 HP | 14.1 Str | 8.0 Skl | 16.9 Spd | 5.2 Luck | 6.3 Def | 0.0 Res

Silver Axe - 28 Atk
Hand Axe - 22 Atk

Heh, I'm actally iffy on Berserker!Draug and considering Hero... anyway, notice a few things here? Draug actually loses if he pulls out the Hand Axe while Draug wins with the Silver Axe by a whopping 5 Atk. Meanwhile their Spd is about the sasme and...yeah.

Let's look at the growths real fast:

Abel - 65 HP | 35 Str | 45 Skl | 70 Spd | 25 Luck | 15 Def

Draug - 80 HP | 45 Str | 35 Skl | 50 Spd | 30 Luck | 0 Def

So to sum this up quick Abel will be getting Spd a little better than Draug would, but 2 things: 1 is Draug can swap to Hero and 2) Draug still wins offense for a while. Let's hit about... 15/6. All I'm going to show is their Str and Spd.

Abel - 15.35 Str, 20.5 Spd

Silver Bow - 29 Atk
Longbow - 25 Atk

Draug - 16.35 Str, 19.4 Spd

Silver Axe - 30 Atk
Hand Axe - 24 Atk

Lulz, Longbow still beats Hand Axe. So if Draug used the time warp (as in go Hero) he only loses 1 Str but gains the momentum to double. Ayiyiyi?

Let's sum it up with this too: Abel needs 5 more levels to hit 24 AS, which can double all the DracoKnights. One more hits him at 25 AS, then 2 more hits 26. Meanwhile Draug is a little bit slower here (5 levels he has 22 AS); however, keep in mind Draug can always go to Hero and obtain that little extra momentum.

My conclusion is this: IMO there seems to be no reason to have a tier difference between these two, as I assumed.

Note that I'm going to compare the Hunter -> General a bit later, but just wanted this for now so you get the idea.

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2 Re: Abel vs. Draug on Wed Nov 18, 2009 9:36 pm

This isn't taking into account Draug's atrocious durability either. 6-7 Def at 20/1 =/= Good.

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3 Re: Abel vs. Draug on Wed Nov 18, 2009 9:41 pm

This isn't taking into account Draug's atrocious durability either. 6-7 Def at 20/1 =/= Good.

I think you mean 38 HP/16 def at 20/1 =/= Bad.

Why is this Fighter Draug, anyway? Hunter General is superior defensively [obvious reasons] and offensively [More effective boosts, stronger 2 range weapons]


My conclusion is this: IMO there seems to be no reason to have a tier difference between these two, as I assumed.

There isn't one?


EDIT: Regarding "terrible" C2 performance...it's relevant, so excerpt from WIP counter to my debate with smash [Cord v Draug]

But chapter 2 comes along, and Draug's in trouble. Big trouble. Pirates have 8-9 spd which means Draug gets doubled, and 19-20 att and then WTA on top of that means he's borderline ORKO'd. Ouch. Cavs have 18-19 att and 9 spd, so they're not pretty either. The pirates knock off a huge chunk of Cord's HP, but at least he's not borderline ORKO'd, since he has 20 HP/5 def/9 AS. Draug is pretty much limited to luring in enemy hunters, and he's barely any better than Cord at that. Easy win for Cord.

Draug can at least spam Javelins [55% hit at range>0%] whereas Cord is still locked to one range on this chapter. Granted the accuracy sucks against axes [even worse now since they have 9 AS instead of 6 so he's down to 55 disp] they're both 2RKOd anyway and they're doing similar damage at melee [2 dmg disparity, their str is equal so WTD/Axes higher MT is the only thing coming into play] with similar accuracy [75 at melee is still pretty good, hell he has a chance at 76 or even 77 depending on if he got skl/lck]. I came into this debate expecting to concede Chapter 2/3 but actually now that I look at numbers I think Draug's still winning.

btw, how is he barely any better than Cord at tanking Hunters? Cord's getting 2-3RKod by them [9-10 damage], Draug's getting 3-4RKOd by them [6-8 damage] and he also counters for 9 dmg/62% acc. It's not a huge disparity but there's definitely a visible difference in favor of Draug.

Chapter 3 is a similar case

yeah :/

But the durability makes Cord a pretty clear winner for chapters 2 and 3.

what durability

They're both 2RKOd. The difference is that after one hit from a pirate, Cord gets left with 5-6 HP, Draug gets left with 1-3. Old man Riff can just barely push Cord back into survive-a-hit range from a cav with a heal. It's a durability lead, but hardly a very significant one. It's certiantly not even half as relevant as 1-2 range.

And, just for putting salt on the wound, Draug has terrible lck, which means he's actually worried about getting critted.

Eh, I'll need to re-record enemy stats, but if Draug is facing crit rates (he probably is), they're pretty small, and it's another factor that I don't see cancelling out his durability win as much as 1-2 range, meaning he gets attacked less in the first place.

Oh, and Cord wins move by 1.

During the two chapters Draug is an Armor, I don't see any instances where this would really change anything.

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4 Re: Abel vs. Draug on Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:03 pm

Its offense vs. defense. Hunter-->General Draug takes an extra hit compared to Cav-->Sniper Abel, but Abel ORKOs everything and Draug 2RKOs everything. No way should there be a tier gap (especially with Draug's subpar performance as a Hunter).

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5 Re: Abel vs. Draug on Thu Nov 19, 2009 12:13 am

There is a reason I have on the H5 topic:

THERE IS NO ONE ASSUMED, FIXED CLASS SETUP FOR EACH CHARACTER
Come up with whatever works.

Seriously, just because one class setup is standard doesn't mean another one won't work.

Also, I think I'm convinced to not make a gap.

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6 Re: Abel vs. Draug on Thu Nov 19, 2009 7:22 am

Its offense vs. defense. Hunter-->General Draug takes an extra hit compared to Cav-->Sniper Abel, but Abel ORKOs everything and Draug 2RKOs everything.


I highly doubt Abel ORKOs EVERYTHING. He certainly doesn't do as well against Dracos [Or Cavs/Paladins/Mamkutes if you're assuming CavSniper instead of CavDraco], and Draug's better 2 range skews defense furhter in his favor if Abel goes CavDraco, and bow weakness is also an issue.

No way should there be a tier gap (especially with Draug's subpar performance as a Hunter).

yeah

that's why there isn't one (i have no idea where Colonel got the idea they were a tier apart)

Also, Draug's "subpar" peformance as Hunter is strictly the early stages of the game. He's fine as soon as he starts doubling

Seriously, just because one class setup is standard doesn't mean another one won't work.

*proceeds to argue Zagaro and Wolf down assuming they're using the Horseman class*

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7 Re: Abel vs. Draug on Thu Nov 19, 2009 8:08 am

Note that I'm going to compare the Hunter -> General a bit later, but just wanted this for now so you get the idea.
So it's still possible.

I did this to show, at the least, there isn't a tier gap between them (as in solifying it).

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8 Re: Abel vs. Draug on Thu Nov 19, 2009 8:27 am

There isn't a tier gap between Wolf and Zagaro.

Did you really feel the need to solidify what we already know?

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9 Re: Abel vs. Draug on Thu Nov 19, 2009 8:55 am

Chainey said:
There's a possibility of a tier gap between Draug and Abel, methinks, especially with all of the improvements for Class Set B that have been discovered.
BB, Don't mock me boy.

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10 Re: Abel vs. Draug on Thu Nov 19, 2009 1:34 pm

No, Colonel M, it's not possible.

Because you're using my statement as the crutch instead of making ACTUAL ARGUMENTS.

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11 Re: Abel vs. Draug on Thu Nov 19, 2009 3:43 pm

There's a possibility of a tier gap between Draug and Abel, methinks, especially with all of the improvements for Class Set B that have been discovered.

Reference, please? I don't recall this ever being said by him, unless it was on Messenger?

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12 Re: Abel vs. Draug on Thu Nov 19, 2009 3:47 pm

Yes, I did say that.

But I also don't like it when people go, "Well, Chainey said this so HAH!" especially since what I said was meant to create discussion, not to take sides or make a final decision.

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13 Re: Abel vs. Draug on Thu Nov 19, 2009 4:56 pm

FE3_Player wrote:Yes, I did say that.

But I also don't like it when people go, "Well, Chainey said this so HAH!" especially since what I said was meant to create discussion, not to take sides or make a final decision.
I was not using it for the "hah" situation. I was using this to spark the discussion. Also, BB asked why I was doing such a comparison and such.

People want to see the Hunter -> General? Fine.

15/1 Draug - 36.0 HP | 12.4 Str | 9.0 Skl | 15.5 Spd | 5.2 Luck | 16.2 Def

First off, whoever said Draug only takes one more hit? Take 26 Atk for an example, which is common. That's a 4RKO. Draug is likely KOing anything back with a Ridersbane if it's a Cavalier.

15/6 Draug - 39 HP | 13.4 Str | 11 Skl | 17.5 Spd | 6.7 Luck | 17.7 Def

Now it's unlikely the Atk has jumped so much, so I'd say Draug is still good taking assaults. Yeesh, 18 AS.

15/11 Draug - 42 HP | 14.4 Str | 13 Skl | 19.5 Spd | 8.2 Luck | 19.2 Def

Lulz, he takes 2 damage per round against Pegasi w/Braves. Highest Brave assualt from Paladins is about 26 again so it's 14 damage per round, or a clean 3RKO. Any lower is a 4RKO (or another level-up will net ~20 Def, it's actually 19.5). Shockingly though... he doubles some of the Paladins, which is a clean ORKO. Meanwhile take a 15/11 Abel has 31 Atk with the Silver Bow. Let's just double check if this can cleanly ORKO Paladins:
Paladin:
46 HP
26 atk
94 (95) hit
16 AS
11 def
7 res
Nope, he does 40/46 HP per round. So Draug wins 50% of the time (Ridersbane is cleanly KOing, don't try this). Draug w/Ridersbane does 29 damage per hit w/Ridersbane. One last thing:
Wyvern 6:
46 (47) HP
27 atk [For javs, brave lance guy has 3 less]
103 hit [88 brave lance]
18 AS
12 (13) def
3 res
Silver Bow!Draug does 39/47 HP damage per round. I don't think I need to re-iterate Abel ORKOing these guys.

Then later on we have C23 Longbow victory vs. C24 DragonLance victory.

If you want to play "when Draug doubles as a Hunter" it happens about the same time as the Fighter. Now consider the trade-off being that he's slightly weaker but has chapters that improve in his favor (C8 isn't so much of a blowout for Abel anymore and C7 Hunter can pick off the flying units easier, etc). The return is quite simple though: lack of 1 range, which means he requires protection / etc.

So Draug wins here a lot easier. As for the tier gap it depends on the following:

- Both have non-existant Enemy Phases. Draug has none before promotion, Abel has none after promotion.
- Draug can take an extra round or two of combat with General. Meanwhile DracoKnight!Abel, IIRC, is 3RKOed by the Paladins though him doubling is a little bit of suspecting.
- Draug will always win with both Paladin-crushing and Draco-crushing. Techically Abel has to choose one or the other.
- Abel doubles far more as a Sniper in comparison to General!Draug, but General!Draug has some doubling potential against a lot of enemies.

So NOW if you want discuss what you want with the Hunter->General. Could THIS make a tier gap? To be honest I myself doubt it, but let's hear from whomever.

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14 Re: Abel vs. Draug on Thu Nov 19, 2009 5:12 pm

The reason why I suggested Hunter -> General was because of that one time you won that argument on IM where Dolph's General's defensive capabilities were outweighing Katua's durability due to being able to walk into enemies as he pleased. Similar situation here. It struck me as odd that you wouldn't use a class setup that worked well in an argument before.

As for whether it justifies a tier gap, I don't know, but I like to say that Draug fills both roles fine. Probably need to consider Abel's role as Paladin as well.

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15 Re: Abel vs. Draug on Thu Nov 19, 2009 6:07 pm

Like I said on IM, the main reason I started with Fighter was because you mentioned that the reason he skyrocketed. Though, as you seem to agree with, Hunter->General is likely the scenario.

Now for Cavalier->Paladin... his only real gains are +4 HP, +2 Str, +1 Spd, and +1 Def. Not much to really say about it since IMO the DracoKnight has slightly better promotion gains (same Spd gain but -2 HP, +2 more Def). As for his Spd he has 21 by 20/7, 22 by 20/9, 24 by 20/13. So he's guaranteed to double the 21 Dracos, but I'd say 22 is near off-limits. He has the Ridersbane and can match the Dragonslaying opportunities, then there's his extra Res padding in C23. Braves likely 2RKO him unless the enemy Atk is a bit lower. For example, C22's Dracos w/22 Atk do 14/39 damage.

DracoKnight nets him near the Spd cap (so in that scenario he can swap back to Paladin if needing more Spd), so I guess here it'd take if you put more weight on Draco's slightly extra capabilities w/the Spd constraint or the Paladin's okay finish (though 20/15 for ~25 Spd is kind of... bad, and he roughly needs this in order to have an offensive advantage against the Snipers and Heroes vs. General!Draug).

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