Fire Emblem Genesis

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Caeser>Roger

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1 Caeser>Roger on Fri Nov 13, 2009 2:28 pm

Reposting from serenes:

I probably should be posting this on fegenesis, but Caeser and Roger are like...the exact same character and should probably be right next to each other. I mean if they're both going Fighter-->Hero:

Roger 5/0: 24 HP, 13 Atk (Iron Axe), 12 AS, 5 Def
Caeser 3/0: 24 HP, 13 Atk (Iron Axe), 9 AS, 5 Def

That extra AS is doubling nothing that Caeser can't already double. Then there's midgame:

Roger 15/0: 33 HP, 27 Atk (Silver Axe), 14 AS, 5 Def
Caeser 15/0: 37 HP, 27 Atk (Silver Axe), 13 AS, 6 Def

Roger might have an advantage against enemies with 10 AS, but Caeser catches up in two levels anyways. Keep in mind that this is right around when Roger reaches 14 AS, so he's winning about 2 chapters at most.

Then there's promotion:

Roger 20/1: 39 HP, 32 Atk (Silver Axe), 20 AS, 9 Def
Caeser 20/1: 45 HP, 31 Atk (Silver Axe), 20 AS, 11 Def

Caeser with the durability lead. Roger gets 3RKO'd by anything with 22+ Atk, and 2RKO'd by anything with 29+ Atk. Caeser gets 3RKO'd by anything with 26+ Atk, and 2RKO'd by anything with 33+ Atk (aka pretty much nothing). This is a pretty significant difference, so Caeser wins here.

Then we look at growths. Caeser has 20% HP, 15% Spd, and 10% Def over Roger's 15% Str. So Caeser continues to win over Roger for the rest of the game.

This was kind of a half assed comparison, but I'll look at enemy stats if anybody disagrees. Roger only wins when he has 14 AS and Caeser has 13 AS, which lasts for about 2 levels. Then Caeser wins by a significant amount from promotion on. I'm thinking Caeser>Roger

It really comes down to how much you value Roger's period of doubling. Roger has 14 AS at 14-15/0, while Caeser doesn't reach it until 16-17/0. However, Caeser does win pretty significantly at promotion. Taking Chapter 20 for example (Lets take them at 20/3, they have to play catch up on levels remember):

Roger 20/3: 41 HP, 33 Atk (Silver Axe), 21 AS, 9 Def
Caeser 20/3: 46 HP, 32 Atk (Silver Axe), 21 AS, 11 Def

Now I forget if Generals have braves or not, but I'll assume they do and somebody can correct me if they don't. Both character's offence is essentially the same, so lets look at defence:


Generals: 26 Attack. That's a 2RKO for Roger, and a 3RKO for Caeser if they have braves. 3RKO for Roger and 4RKO for Caeser if they don't.
Paladins: 26-27 Attack. Caeser has the same durability as Roger against the 27 atk ones, but wins again for the 26 Attack ones.

So really, it comes down to Roger's short doubling lead, over Caeser's durability lead from promotion onwards. And yes, they should be right next to each other.

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2 Re: Caeser>Roger on Fri Nov 13, 2009 3:13 pm

Like I've already said, the only thing that I can say is the support in the lategame would nullify a little bit of Caesar's durability lead. That, and many units have over 25 Atk aside from the later stages where both would have WTA against (DracoKnights and Pegasi).

Since I also cannot use the Speedwing as an argment, I have no choice but to at least agree with the motion.

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3 Re: Caeser>Roger on Fri Nov 13, 2009 3:26 pm

To be fair, I don't really agree with forges/stat boosters not being considered. I think they should be considered, within reason, with the use of them being counted as a slight point against them like they are in the other lists. But thats a different topic.

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4 Re: Caeser>Roger on Fri Nov 13, 2009 3:29 pm

Yeah, then Roger would technically have an advantage in the beginnng.

Otherise, won't disagree with Caesar > Roger. I always did see Caesar and Roger as two fairly close units anyway.

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5 Re: Caeser>Roger on Fri Nov 13, 2009 3:55 pm

It should also be noted that Caesar as his base class can double pirates in chapter 9 that proc'd 8 speed rather than 9. So can Roger as a hunter, but Caesar does have swords. To explain the benefit, he has 15 base avoid (12 speed, 6 luck). That+10 from WTA+15 from negating weapon rank=40 avoid, reducins steel axers to 50 hit, and hand axers to 40. So while Roger doesn't have to take counters, Ceasar's at least able to avoid an atack every now and then to grant him an extra double attack. Things neither double? Caesar's got Steel swords, of which Roger cannot respond to as any class outside of Armor, the one that gets him killed here.

Just throwing that out there.

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6 Re: Caeser>Roger on Fri Nov 13, 2009 4:51 pm

Of course stat boosters shouldn't be ignored, the problem is Ceasar wants the wing just as badly as Roger.


I thought we agreed that Ceasar and Roger shouldn't be a tier apart anyway.

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7 Re: Caeser>Roger on Fri Nov 13, 2009 5:07 pm

If anything, Caesar wants an energy drop to double with steel faster. After 5 levels, speed's not exactly a problem for him.

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8 Re: Caeser>Roger on Fri Nov 13, 2009 5:47 pm

BB, remember that Roger has 12 Spd at base, which was why I've mentioned the Speedwing... I dunno how many times now. Caesar cannot gain as much of a benefit early on as Roger could have.

Of course, we're drifting away from the point. Caesar > Roger has been agreed on, and I'd simply treat them like Kain / Abel if possible.

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9 Re: Caeser>Roger on Fri Nov 13, 2009 6:05 pm

Colonel M wrote:BB, remember that Roger has 12 Spd at base, which was why I've mentioned the Speedwing... I dunno how many times now. Caesar cannot gain as much of a benefit early on as Roger could have.

Of course, we're drifting away from the point. Caesar > Roger has been agreed on, and I'd simply treat them like Kain / Abel if possible.

Caesar has 12 speed as his base class...a bit more time to get speed (you recruit Roger later in the chapter, as an armor). If anyone has speed issues, it's not Caesar.

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10 Re: Caeser>Roger on Fri Nov 13, 2009 6:25 pm

Grandjackal wrote:
Colonel M wrote:BB, remember that Roger has 12 Spd at base, which was why I've mentioned the Speedwing... I dunno how many times now. Caesar cannot gain as much of a benefit early on as Roger could have.

Of course, we're drifting away from the point. Caesar > Roger has been agreed on, and I'd simply treat them like Kain / Abel if possible.

Caesar has 12 speed as his base class...a bit more time to get speed (you recruit Roger later in the chapter, as an armor). If anyone has speed issues, it's not Caesar.
Caesar: Fighter->Hero
Rogr: Fighter->Hero

lrn2readplz.

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11 Re: Caeser>Roger on Fri Nov 13, 2009 6:27 pm

Colonel M wrote:
Grandjackal wrote:
Colonel M wrote:BB, remember that Roger has 12 Spd at base, which was why I've mentioned the Speedwing... I dunno how many times now. Caesar cannot gain as much of a benefit early on as Roger could have.

Of course, we're drifting away from the point. Caesar > Roger has been agreed on, and I'd simply treat them like Kain / Abel if possible.

Caesar has 12 speed as his base class...a bit more time to get speed (you recruit Roger later in the chapter, as an armor). If anyone has speed issues, it's not Caesar.
Caesar: Fighter->Hero
Rogr: Fighter->Hero

lrn2readplz.

'Cause clearly I'm not implying he might not want to be a fighter.

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12 Re: Caeser>Roger on Sat Nov 14, 2009 2:34 am

Well fine, if Roger gets a Speedwing, Caesar gets something else (like an energy drop) is a better way of putting it. It's not like he's the only one who wants it [hi I'm Barst and I really need AS]

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13 Re: Caeser>Roger on Sat Nov 14, 2009 7:25 am

I'm going to assume no stat boosters are assumed for their tier positions.

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14 Re: Caeser>Roger on Sat Nov 14, 2009 1:08 pm

bblader1 wrote:Well fine, if Roger gets a Speedwing, Caesar gets something else (like an energy drop) is a better way of putting it. It's not like he's the only one who wants it [hi I'm Barst and I really need AS]
Obviously bblader if Roger got a Speedwing + a forge, Caesar would've likely got something as well.

And like I've also said it doesn't matter since:
I'm going to assume no stat boosters are assumed for their tier positions.
This stands.

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15 Re: Caeser>Roger on Sun Nov 15, 2009 10:59 am

How come no stat boosters will be assumed? They are assumed in all the other lists, it just counts as a negative against them. If a character improves enough with a stat booster such that it outweighs the negative of taking it then it should be taken into account

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16 Re: Caeser>Roger on Sun Nov 15, 2009 11:04 am

Alright. I'll allow stat boosters since only one or two people here would be unreasonable with stat booster arguments anyway.

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17 Re: Caeser>Roger on Wed Nov 18, 2009 9:21 pm

Before I go in-depth with anything, since stat boosters are technically "allowed", could Roger's advantage of using a Speedwing to keep up with the team be seen as a reason to put him back over Caesar?

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18 Re: Caeser>Roger on Wed Nov 18, 2009 9:22 pm

Depends on how much weight is put on him taking the Speedwing from many that want it.

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